Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 December 24#Category:Ancient Iranian poetry

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. – Fayenatic London 11:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:Family of Darius the Great to :Category:Achaemenid dynasty

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:OVERLAPCAT, Darius was one of the Achaemenid kings, hence all his family members were Achaemenids as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I think 'dynasty' is generally supposed to refer to rulers from a single family, which would mean the categories don't actually overlap, by definition at least. Wikipedia categories do seem to include other family members in 'dynasty' categories, however, and there is a :Category:Kings of the Achaemenid Empire for the rulers specifically. Though, presumably, these 'family of' categories refer to immediate rather than extended family, so I'm not sure they actually overlap. Avilich (talk) 14:58, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

:* This is a misunderstanding, dynasty categories do not only contain rulers, they contain all their family members as well. For example in this case Artabanus (son of Hystaspes) is also in :Category:Achaemenid dynasty. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

:::I think you didn't interpret my comment properly, I explicitly acknowledged what you're saying. What I said was that "Family of Darius the Great" includes only his immediate family, wheread "Achaemenid dynasty" includes people to the 4th century bC. Avilich (talk) 14:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

:::* Apologies for the wrong interpretation. But then the question becomes, how do we define 'immediate'? Family categories are fine if they are not part of a larger dynasty category because then you do not need to bother where to draw the line. In that case 'family' will by default refer to the extended family. But once a family category is part of a dynasty category, you do need to define (subjective) criteria when to include someone in a family category or not. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

:::::The family category seems to include up to first cousins once removed, whereas Achaemenid dynasty includes everyone down to the empire's collapse in the 330s BC. I actually agree with you that the lack of a clearly-drawn line is a problem. This is in fact something I noticed elsewhere too, as in :Category:Julio-Claudian dynasty and :Category:Family of Augustus. Unfortunately I don't have an easy answer for what to do with the ones you nominated specifially, since the scope of both categories is too different, notwithstanding that they are indeed ill-defined. I think a global discussion on this issue would be beneficial, and I wouldn't be averse to throwing away these 'family of ...' categories altogether. Avilich (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support The scope of both categories is certainly different, as the former includes only Darius's close family, whereas the merge target has people down to the 330s BC, so I'm not sure that "overlap" is the best rationale to bring up. However, there seems to be no precise definition of what constitutes a close family relationship, and so "Family of Darius the Great" is arguably too vague a categorization to exist in its own right. Avilich (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no reason for :Category:Achaemenid dynasty to not have subcategories. This is not an overlap. Dimadick (talk) 07:38, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Suggest :Category:Achaemenid ruling family. We seem to have categories for various political families in US. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

:* How would this be different from :Category:Achaemenid dynasty? Marcocapelle (talk) 16:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Taking Arsames (satrap of Egypt), on a quick read of the article I can't see why he is in this cat. He is not in :Category:Achaemenid dynasty. The current name is after two speedy moves in 2020, and may be yet another example of the harm speedies do. Then Ariabignes, apparently a son of Darius, is not in the dynasty cat. No real objection to keeping the cat, but we should decide what belongs in it, and the dynasty cat, and give both a careful sort through. Johnbod (talk) 11:31, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

:* I have removed Arsames (satrap of Egypt) from this category. If the category is kept, as a subcategory of :Category:Achaemenid dynasty, Ariabignes does not have to be in the dynasty category category per WP:SUBCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:59, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Setters (volleyball). (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 06:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

• Propose renaming :Category:Setters to :Category:Setters (volleyball)

Nominator's rationale: Setters are dogs. And, though unlikely, it is definitely possible that a category for setter dogs could exist — we have, for example, {{cl|Spaniels}} and {{cl|Retrievers}}. Setter (volleyball) refers to the volleyball position, and the category should match. Grutness...wha? 13:13, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support - per nom and per Setter (volleyball). I expect there are other setters, as well as the dogs. (Indeed, setters of crosswords.) Oculi (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 04:30, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. — Dale Arnett (talk) 04:49, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 00:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:People from Sandyston Township, New Jersey to :Category:People from Sussex County, New Jersey

Nominator's rationale: Small one-county community with just three entries. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:11, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Upmerge at 3 articles this category is too small to justify.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:36, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Government of Bangalore. (non-admin closure) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:Bruhat Bengaluru Mahanagara Palike to :Category:Government of Bangalore

Nominator's rationale: merge, lightly populated category and its scope is not very different from that of its parent category. This is follow-up on this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:34, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support The English WP should have names in English, not some Indian language. per previous discussion. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:29, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per previous discussion linked in nom and WP:SMALLCAT — DaxServer (talk) 19:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. – Fayenatic London 11:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:Burial sites of Belgian royal houses to :Category:Burial sites of European royal families and :Category:Burial sites of Belgian noble families
• Propose merging :Category:Burial sites of the Royal houses of the Netherlands to :Category:Burial sites of European royal families and :Category:Burial sites of Dutch noble families
• Propose merging :Category:Burial sites of Russian royal houses to :Category:Burial sites of European royal families and :Category:Burial sites of Russian noble families

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory each. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:06, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. If retained, rename to :Category:Burial sites of Belgian royal palaces. Must have taken quite some time to have dug that grave. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support as SMALLCAT, but the use of "house" is correct. The British monarchic dynasty is the "House of Windsor". Peterkingiron (talk) 16:32, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

::{{Ping|Peterkingiron}} I don't think that you quite appreciated my little joke there. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:11, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment :Category:Burial sites of Russian royal houses has been emptied. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• Now repopulated with Romanov category, which was apparently removed in connection with its being in both the Royal category and its Noble parent. – Fayenatic London 16:28, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge as WP:SOFTDELETE due to lack of participation. – Fayenatic London 11:33, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:Ancient Iranian poetry to :Category:Ancient Iranian literature

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with just one subcategory. A second merge target is not needed, the subcategory is already in :Category:Epic poems in Persian. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:07, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:21, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• Propose deleting {{lc|20th-century rulers in North America}}

Nominator's rationale: nomenclature issue (rulers) duplicates existing categories (Presidents) (Prime Ministers) Whiteguru (talk) 03:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

• Rename Looking at the subcategories of :Category:20th-century rulers in Europe, I don't think that duplication of scope is problematic here, but rulers should be changed to the more general heads of state across the entire tree. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:30, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
• Keep and populate -- This is in principle an appropriate container category. The monarchs is an oddity, as it covers an indigenous ruler within Costa Rica and those who claimed to rule an island off Haiti. It ought to have Prime Ministers of Canada; Governors-General of Canada; :Category:Presidents of Mexico; and those of other central American countries. However some of these are not split by century. We have :Category:North American rulers, so that perhaps the better solution is to merge to that and also merge the subcats to their non-dated parent. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:46, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose This seems to be a regional subcategory rather than a duplicate. Dimadick (talk) 07:53, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• Propose merging :Category:Mayors of Irvington, New Jersey to :Category:People from Irvington, New Jersey

Nominator's rationale: Category with just one entry. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:50, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• Full upmerge is needed, not just as nom. Now two entries. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:35, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Upmerge to place category and also to :Category:Mayors of places in New Jersey.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.