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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 31#Siblings of national leaders

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= March 31 =

== Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: split per option B. I have deleted :Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan as empty. It can be re-created if it needs to be to fit into this adopted scheme. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

:Nominator's rationale: This is a follow-up of this recently closed RfD, where no logical outcome was reached regarding the Canada category. I am starting a new CfD with all relevant categories included, so that there may be some consistency.

:These countries continued to recognised the ROC government in Taipei as the legitimate government of China for some time before switching recognition to the PRC. In the current situation, there are some countries (Canada, Japan, South Korea) where separate categories exist for "ambassador to Taiwan", while for the others, their ambassadors to the ROC on Taipei are placed under the "ambassador to China" category. To achieve consistency, one of the following should be chosen:

:*Option A: merging

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan to :Category:Ambassadors of Canada to China

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Japan to Taiwan to :Category:Ambassadors of Japan to China

:**:Category:Ambassadors of South Korea to Taiwan to :Category:Ambassadors of South Korea to China

:*Option B: splitting

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Australia to China to :Category:Ambassadors of Australia to China and :Category:Ambassadors of Australia to Taiwan

:**:Category:Ambassadors of the Gambia to China to :Category:Ambassadors of the Gambia to China and :Category:Ambassadors of the Gambia to Taiwan

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Jordan to China to :Category:Ambassadors of Jordan to China and :Category:Ambassadors of Jordan to Taiwan

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Malawi to China to :Category:Ambassadors of Malawi to China and :Category:Ambassadors of Malawi to Taiwan

:**:Category:Ambassadors of Senegal to China to :Category:Ambassadors of Senegal to China and :Category:Ambassadors of Senegal to Taiwan

:**:Category:Ambassadors of the United States to China to :Category:Ambassadors of the United States to China and :Category:Ambassadors of the United States to Taiwan

:*Option C: Splitting to "Ambassadors of Foo to the Republic of China", so that pre-1949 and post-1949 ambassadors to the ROC are kept together.

::It's clear from the previous CfD that Option C doesn't stand a chance (I'm only including it for the sake of completeness), so my preference is Option A. If the categories aren't going to be split at the change of recognition, they shouldn't be split at all. Paul_012 (talk) 19:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

:*Pinging Marcocapelle, William Allen Simpson, Peterkingiron, and Johnpacklambert from the previous discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:47, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

  • Option B, the name of the country since 1949 is Taiwan by current standards. Similar as we use the name Middle Ages while people living in that period would not use that term. But different from using Southern Netherlands for 18th-century Belgium because (even) by current standards we would not use the name Belgium in 18th-century history articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:43, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Option B except Canada, with a preference for a mention of the ROC such as Ambassadors of Foo to Taiwan (Republic of China) or Ambassadors of Foo to the Republic of China (Taiwan). Re: option C, I agree indeed that ambassadors to the pre-1949 Republic of China and post-1949 Republic of China in Taiwan should not be confused. All pre-1911, 1911-1949 and post-1949 ambassadors to mainland China should be in a category named Ambassadors of Foo to China because we categorize by country and not by political regime. Place Clichy (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

: Delete :Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan because the two members Chester Ronning, Thomas Clayton Davis were diplomats in pre-1949 nationalist government in mainland China as well as the early PRC in the short period until the Korean War in 1951 when Canada kept a representation in mainland China, per article List of ambassadors of Canada to China, they are therefore unrelated to Taiwan. The main article states that Canada never sent an ambassador to Taiwan, although there were ROC ambassadors in Ottawa. Place Clichy (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Question: the reverse hierarchy :Category:Ambassadors of the Republic of China has 24 subcategories which sometimes use Republic of China and sometimes just China but never Taiwan. What should be done with these so that we have a minimally coherent structure? Place Clichy (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • More questions: why not nominate the entire {{Cl|Ambassadors to Taiwan}} and its sub categories for {{Cl|Ambassadors of Belize to Taiwan|Belize}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Burkina Faso to Taiwan|Burkina Faso}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Eswatini to Taiwan|Eswatini}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Guatemala to Taiwan|Guatemala}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Guinea-Bissau to Taiwan|Guinea-Bissau}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Haiti to Taiwan|Haiti}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Kiribati to Taiwan|Kiribati}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Nicaragua to Taiwan|Nicaragua}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Palau to Taiwan‎|Palau}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of Saint Kitts and Nevis to Taiwan|Saint Kitts and Nevis}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of São Tomé and Príncipe to Taiwan|São Tomé and Príncipe}}, {{Cl|Ambassadors of the Solomon Islands to Taiwan|the Solomon Islands}} and {{Cl|Ambassadors of Thailand to Taiwan|Thailand}}? Also, should ambassadors sent to the Republic of China government in Taiwan be parented to the {{Cl|Ambassadors to China}} category, which also includes ambassadors sent to the 1911-49 Republic of China, Qing China and former regimes? You are invited to give your opinion at {{section link|Category talk:Ambassadors to Taiwan|Ambassadors to the Republic of China}}. Place Clichy (talk) 11:50, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I left out other ambassadors to Taiwan categories for those countries who currently (or until recently, i.e. much later than the 1972 UN resolution) maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan, as the circumstances for those cases are quite different. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Rename so that anyone sent to the island of Taiwan is listed as to Taiwan, anyone sent to the mainland is listed as China. This will be the clearest and most clear way.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:16, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment :Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan has been emptied already. Liz Read! Talk! 02:03, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Option B -- We have had discussions of this kind many times over. The outcome was that we decided that the post-1949 Republic of China should be known in WP as Taiwan. Due to the attitude of PRC, few countries have formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan, though a number have informal ones. The British diplomat is called a "trade representative". Before 1945, Taiwan was not part of China, so that it is only for the short period 1945-9 that there might be a genuine overlap. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
  • : {{Re|Peterkingiron}} Actually in the period ca. 1949-1971, many countries and international organizations (including the U.N. and the U.S.) had diplomatic relations with the "Republic of China" in Taiwan which held the seat in the name of China (see {{section link|Foreign relations of Taiwan|Relations switched from the ROC to the PRC}}). The U.S. switched in 1979. The debate for ambassadors to ROC/Taiwan therefore mostly refers to this period where large countries had their ambassador to China located in Taiwan, rather than the, truth be told, handful of countries which still have ambassador-level relationships. Place Clichy (talk) 16:43, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Things named after Nikola Tesla ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Things named after Nikola Tesla}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME. Not WP:DEFINING and clearly contrary to practice as one of only two "Things named after" categories on en.wiki. We already have List of things named after Nikola Tesla. (Also, is a unit of measurement a "thing"?) NebY (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Siblings of national leaders ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Siblings of Prime Ministers of India}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Siblings of Prime Ministers of Japan}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Siblings of Prime Ministers of New Zealand}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Siblings of Taoisigh}}

: Nominator's rationale: page history shows that these pages were created after categories which were subsequently deleted in CfD: {{C|Siblings of national leaders}} (here), {{C|Siblings of Presidents of the United States}} (here), {{Cl|Siblings of Prime Ministers of Malaysia}} (here). There seems to be consensus that these sibling relationships are not defining. Someone probably would not have a Wikipedia article just for being the sibling of a Prime Minister if they were not also notable for some other activity. Place Clichy (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete all per nom and my own nomination back in 2016. Simply being a brother or sister of a Prime Minister or any other office holder doesn't confer any special wikitreatment, being WP:NONDEF and WP:TRIVIALCAT. Brandmeistertalk 16:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:48, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete There may be cases where a family category is warranted, but this relationship doesn't seem generally defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:23, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. --Just N. (talk) 15:24, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Recipients of the War Medal (Norway) ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:Recipients of the War Medal (Norway)

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD and WP:OVERLAPCAT)

:There have been exactly 4 ways to earn the War Medal (Norway):

:*1: Automatically issued to everyone killed in action in World War II

:*2: Automatically issued to everyone who served on Norwegian naval or civilian ships for 18 months in WWII

:*3: Selectively issued for meritous service in WWII

:*4: Selectively issued for meritous service since 2012 (often against ISIL/ISIS)

:3 and 4 had a shot at being defining but the most the articles are from 1 and 2. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:46, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Recipients of the Medal of Aeronautical Merit ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (category had already been deleted per G7). Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:Recipients of the Medal of Aeronautical Merit

:Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD and WP:PERFCAT)

:When foreign military leaders have a training with Uruguay, the Medal of Aeronautical Merit is given out as souvenir. The category contains 2 air force generals (1 from Spain and 1 from the United States) and neither article mentions Uruguay outside of this award. (There may also be domestic recipients but none are in this category.) There wasn't a list but there also is not a main article so I shoehorned the current category contents into a collapsible list right here in the Orders, decorations, and medals of Uruguay article. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:46, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.