Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 3

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Cultural depictions of Libyan people and :Category:Cultural depictions of men. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Cultural depictions of Libyan men to :Category:Cultural depictions of Libyan people

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Only one category in here that is not helpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 21:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom but dual merge also to :Category:Cultural depictions of men. Honestly I think that that whole tree should go per WP:EGRS but currently it exists so it is a proper merge target. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
• The whole tree is helpful and should absolutely not be merged, there needs to be difusion on these kinds of categories.★Trekker (talk) 10:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Why should there be diffusion by gender? Marcocapelle (talk) 15:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Captives of First Nations people. No prejudice against proposing the category be renamed again. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Captives of Native Canadians to :Category:Captives of First Nations people

:Nominator's rationale: Sibling is Captives of Native Americans Mason (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support renaming AHI-3000 (talk) 01:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support First Nations is the preferred term for Indigenous Canadian people who are not Métis or Inuit. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Is "first nations" specifically Canadian? Would not :Category:Captives of First Nations people of Canada (or similar) be more precise? Peterkingiron (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Mauritian people by occupation and century to :Category:Mauritian people by century

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here that's not helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Rodrigues people by occupation to :Category:People from Rodrigues

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here that's not helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Qatari people by period to :Category:Qatari people

:* Propose merging :Category:Qatari people by century and occupation to :Category:Qatari people by occupation

:* Propose merging :Category:Qatari people by occupation and century to :Category:Qatari people by century

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not helpful for navigation with only one category in it Mason (talk) 17:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: As well as C20 and C21 businesspeople, there is also {{c|21st-century Qatari politicians‎}}, for which a C20 sibling could easily be populated. – Fayenatic London 22:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

:* For two subcategories this extra category layer is still redundant. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Roman Catholic missionaries in pre-1776 British North America to :Category:Roman Catholic missionaries in North America

:Nominator's rationale: Either merge to parent category OR if kept rename to Roman Catholic missionaries in British North America. This is an underpopulated category that is too narrow because BNA doesn't exist until 1783. Per the parent category description "British North America (1783–1907) — the colonies and territories of the British Empire remaining in continental North America after the end of the American Revolutionary War for independence in 1783." Mason (talk) 17:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, the only article is about a 17th-century missionary, well before British North America was established. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Merge as a small category. The subject served in Maryland. The category is accurate, but it should be in "in Thirteen Colonies", if kept, but would need populating. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:British East Africa to :Category:East Africa Protectorate

:Nominator's rationale: Identical category. British East Africa redirect to East Africa Protectorate Mason (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge in the spirit of WP:C2D. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge all as nominated (including those added later). (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Disease-related deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Disease-related deaths in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths from pneumonia in Nazi Germany to :Category:Deaths from pneumonia in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths from cancer in Nazi Germany to :Category:Deaths from cancer in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Tuberculosis deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Tuberculosis deaths in Germany

:Nominator's rationale: I don't think the intersection between political regime and disease-related deaths is defining in this case (or really any case...) Mason (talk) 04:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support, Nazi Germany wasn't a separate country, it was Germany in a certain period. Accidental deaths and its subcategory may be added here. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Update. {{ping|Marcocapelle}}. I've nominated most of the nazi death categories. I think that we should either merge the parent category :Category:Deaths in Nazi Germany, as I think that folks will continue to be added to the category if we don't. Or find a way to make it extremely clear that this is a container category for a very narrow scope.

Additional noms per Marcocapelle. Mason (talk) 19:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Deaths in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Alcohol-related deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Alcohol-related deaths in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Suicides in Nazi Germany to :Category:Suicides in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Road incident deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Road incident deaths in Germany=

:* Propose merging :Category:Accidental deaths in Nazi Germany to :Category:Accidental deaths in Germany

• Merge 4 of them, I agree that people will continue to be added to the root category if we don't merge it. The only category I am somewhat hesitant about is :Category:Suicides in Nazi Germany. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:42, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes, I also hesitated with the suicide category. But there is a child category in there for "Nazis who committed suicide in Nazi Germany‎" (and actually there's a child category already for Category:Nazis who committed suicide in Germany), so I do think we wouldn't lose the regime specific aspect of the suicide category. Mason (talk) 21:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* Even so, there are quite a few other Nazi-period-related suicides (socialists, Jews, LGBT people). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

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• I don't think "in Nazi Germany" is a good categorization for suicides of Nazis or people persecuted by the Nazis, because many of these suicides occurred outside the borders of Nazi Germany. Additionally, it's unclear whether "in Nazi Germany" count the prewar borders (as is the norm with current conflicts) or some other borders. So I think this category, if kept, should be renamed to something thematically not geographically specific. (t · c) buidhe 22:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Tangut people and :Category:Chinese government officials. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Tangut officials to :Category:Tangut people

:Nominator's rationale: Small category that's presently not helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, also to :Category:Chinese government officials. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Papua New Guinea national soccer team. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 13:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Papua New Guinea national football team results}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT with no chance of being increased Joseph2302 (talk) 12:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 18:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
• Upmerge into {{cat|Papua New Guinea national football team}} and then delete. GiantSnowman 18:42, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment If upmerged, it should be to {{cat|Papua New Guinea national soccer team}} following recent RM. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. There is weak consensus that the category is not defining. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 14:00, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|James Goldsmith}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:OCASSOC. Category description is "links to the companies which James Goldsmith owned or was involved with, and includes individuals whom worked for him" -- but companies he was "involved with", but not the outright owner of, do not belong in an eponymous category for him, and neither do individuals who worked for him. And on a random spotcheck of a handful of articles in this category, every one I checked failed to mention James Goldsmith at all apart from the category declaration itself, meaning they certainly weren't defined by any involvement on his part. Bearcat (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

::Keep First on list AB Felix purchased by Cavenham Foods in 1972, wholly owned by Cavenham from 1976 (referenced). Cavenham Foods was created by James Goldsmith as per the opening line of the article. Second, Ambrosia (food brand), owned by Bovril (though admittedly not on the page which has an improvement header). Bovril was purchased by Cavenham in 1971 as per article (all referenced on Bovril). Amora (mustard), again does not mention Goldsmith, but if you check both the Cavenham and Generale Occidentale page you will see this (again this page has an article improvement notice as it is not correct). Carr's again states purchased by Cavenham (referenced). Chocolat Poulain was purchased by James Goldsmith company Generale Occidentale as referenced on that page. Colonial Stores was purchased by Grand Union (supermarket) owned by Goldsmith (referenced on the Grand Union page). Crown Zellerbach again has referenced that Goldsmith purchased the business in 1985. Diamond Match Company again 1982 and referenced. Elizabeth Shaw (confectionery company) again is referenced to show owned by Goldsmith's Cavenham. L'Express as per article purchased 1977. Roland Franklin again mentions Goldsmith. Floyd Hall was appointed by Goldsmith to Grand Union as referenced in article. Home and Colonial Stores again purchased by Goldsmith's Cavenham as referenced. Lipton doesn't mention Goldsmith but says it was part of Allied Suppliers which links to Home and Colonial page. Maille (company) doesn't mention Goldsmith but was owned by Generale Occidentale and is referenced there. Presses de la Cité States it was sold to Generale Occidentale, owned by Goldsmith. Presto (UK supermarket) again doesn't mention Goldsmith but mentions Allied Suppliers. RS McColl mentions owned by Cavenham. Synthol (mouthwash) does not mention any ownership history, but as per Cavenham page is referenced as being owned by them. Weingarten's again referenced to show purchased by Cavenham. Wright's Biscuits again says purchased by Cavenham. So all of these companies were either owned Cavenham, Generale Occidentale or Goldsmith's other holding companies (General Oriental/ Trocadero are just two). The others were people who worked for or with Goldsmith. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

:::Again, WP:OCASSOC. People who "worked for or with Goldsmith" are not defined by Goldsmith — and even if he owned a company, that company is still not defined by his ownership if its own article can't be arsed to even mention his name at all. Nothing is defined by Goldsmith until its article contains several substantial paragraphs about Goldsmith's direct personal relationship with it — even if he owned a company or employed a person, that's not a defining relationship if the article doesn't directly contextualize the significance of that relationship in its own body text. Bearcat (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

::::If you read Cavenham Foods or Generale Occidentale you will see these are all referenced there after I have rewritten these articles over the last months to improve the articles. I am still in the process of adding to the other articles, when I get the chance (Maille and Chocolate Poulin were both sold to Danone predecessor which is not even mentioned in the article!). They are all directly linked to Goldsmith. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Probably delete per nom. This is more suitable for a list in an article. But if kept, rename to :Category:Cavenham Foods and purge what does not belong. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Delete per nom/marcocapelle. Mason (talk) 21:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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Relisting comment: No consensus on whether to delete or repurpose as an eponymous category for Cavenham Foods.
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• Delete I can see company associations being defining for founders, but we're talking about someone who bought and sold companies (arguably as a corporate raider) so this feels like akin to WP:PERFCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Keep James Goldsmith was a notable (if controversial) entrepreneur. He was a leading executive of several public companies in which he had major shareholdings. At worst, rename to :Category:Cavenham Foods. However this business empire was created by Goldsmith and broken up from 1978 and dissolved in 1986. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:10, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete the first, merge the second. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Bavaria to :Category:Deaths in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Suicides in the Kingdom of Bavaria to :Category:Suicides in Germany

:Nominator's rationale: small underpopulated cat where regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 13:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• Delete 1st, deaths by country should be a container category by cause of death. Country of death in itself is redundant, as it largely overlaps with nationality.

: Oppose 2nd, the two suicides happened before the German Empire was established. Possibly merge it to Europe. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

:: Adam Darr dies in Augsburg. Heinrich Julius Alexander von Kalb shot himself "near Munich". Augsburg and Munich are in Germany. So :Category:Suicides in Germany is perfectly fine (see also reasoning above). Place Clichy (talk) 10:57, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment Bavaria was a state of the Holy Roman Empire before there was a German Empire. Augsburg was (I think) a free city. As long as we are allowed to use Germany to cover HRE and its successors Place Clichy's suggestion is a good solution. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Place Clichy. @Peterkingiron, do you think :Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Bavaria should be deleted or merged? Qwerfjkltalk 15:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
• :: I am happy with deleting the first category, because all content is already at lower levels under :Category:Deaths in Germany. Place Clichy (talk) 19:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:42, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Prussia to :Category:Deaths in Germany

:* Propose merging :Category:Suicides in the Kingdom of Prussia to :Category:Suicides in Germany

:Nominator's rationale: small underpopulated cat where regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 13:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• Delete 1st, deaths by country should be a container category by cause of death. Country of death in itself is redundant, as it largely overlaps with nationality.

: Oppose 2nd, the two suicides happened before the German Empire was established. Possibly merge it to Europe. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

:: Louise Brachmann drowned herself in Halle. Friedrich Eduard Beneke dies in Berlin. Halle and Berlin are in Germany. Hence :Category:Suicides in Germany is a perfectly fine merge target. And even if we wanted to slice topic categories by every possible intersection of past and present country and political regime, the German nation certainly predates the establishment of the Empire in 1871, and 19th-century Germans felt Germans, as e.g. the German revolutions of 1848–1849 would indicate. Place Clichy (talk) 10:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

::: I do not agree with the logic that having a common term for people with the same language implies a nationality. The concept of nationality is linked to a state, not to language. Likewise the term Arab Spring does not imply that there is an Arab nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

:::: I agree that language does not imply nationality. However, the concept of nationality is linked to that of nation, more that with that of state. As sometimes, nations predate states, as is especially obvious in the case of German, Italian and Polish nations in the 19th century. Goethe is a German writer, the most famous of all, in the sense of German nationality, not language. Plus in the case of Germany, people in the two nominated category actually dies at the time of either the German Confederation or the Confederation of the Rhine, so a German state, albeit a confederation, existed at the time. Place Clichy (talk) 09:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge to Germany categories as these are fairly small categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Deliquescent materials. No opposition in two weeks. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Deliquescent substances to :Category:Deliquescent materials

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with :Category:Materials and its subcats. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Deities in Taoism to :Category:Taoist deities

:Nominator's rationale: In line with other deity categories e.g :Category:Hindu deities and to be aligned to :Category:Taoist mythology Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per WP:C2C, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. The current title is awkward. Dimadick (talk) 09:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge as per nom. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional magicians and sorcerers to :Category:Fictional characters who use magic

:Nominator's rationale: Straight up overlap here with essentially the same topic. I don't mind renaming the older category to something like "Fictional magicians" after the merge is complete, but we don't need two separate categories on the same thing. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• Not sure about this. Magicians and sorcerers seems more specific. A different direction is to containerize :Category:Fictional characters who use magic. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
• :{{ping|Marcocapelle}} Yeah, well, we already have :Category:Fictional wizards and :Category:Fictional witches if we want to get more specific. I'm not sure what's implied by those that isn't by "sorcerer". I also don't think the other categories in it - alchemist, necromancer, druid - counts as a sorcerer per se. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* I see what you mean. We currently have three category layers (wizards, magicians, use magic) and we only need two. Then support. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support due to irreconcilable overlap. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
• Alternate proposal: Merge/combine most of the various different categories for magic users. Get rid of :Category:Fictional witches and :Category:Fictional wizards, move all relevant pages into another category that's named something along the lines of :Category:Fictional magicians, :Category:Fictional sorcerers, :Category:Fictional magicians and sorcerers, or :Category:Fictional witches and wizards. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• :I disagree, as wizards and witches are independently notable stock characters. They don't need to be lumped in with each other. If there is a magic-user who is not a witch or wizard they can be contained within the "use magic" parent category fairly easily. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::How does one define the difference between a witch and wizard anyways? Is it gender? I'm not even sure about that. There's definitely a common archetype for fictional characters who are skilled in magic, whether they be called mages, magicians, sorcerers, witches, wizards, etc. AHI-3000 (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::If WP:RS call them a witch or wizard. We don't have to do the mental heavy lifting in figuring it out, this is just for classification of what an article already says. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Oppose alternative since witches and wizards are the most specific characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep More specific categories make sense for different types of stock characters. Dimadick (talk) 00:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Keep per Dimadick AHI-3000 (talk) 22:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

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• {{ping|Dimadick|AHI-3000}} :Category:Fictional magicians and sorcerers is not the more specific category, it is merely an in-between layer, with e.g. wizards and witches as its more specific subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Witches and wizards are a type of magician/sorcerer. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merege as per nom. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional characters who use magic by occupation to :Category:Fictional characters who use magic

:Nominator's rationale: Made by a blocked user. The amount of categories here that can actually be called an occupation is too small to make this category necessary. "Spiritual medium" does not imply being a magician either, IMO, so that should likely be purged anyway. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

::Delete I'd go the full way: None of these except :Category:Fictional spiritual mediums are definitely occupations. I'm unsure if :Category:Magical superheroes and :Category:Magical supervillains count. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:55, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom (rather than delete), the subcategories still properly belong in the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• Alternate merge into :Category:Fictional magicians and sorcerers. AHI-3000 (talk) 22:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

:* I don't think that deities and superheroes belong under magicians. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

:*:Then we could move them over to "characters who use magic". AHI-3000 (talk) 17:19, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

:*:* (response added after relisting) that is exactly what the nomination intends. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

:*:*:I meant moving deities and superheroes over to the "characters who use magic" category, while everything else should go in the "magicians and sorcerers" category. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional hypnotists and indoctrinators to :Category:Fictional hypnotists

:Nominator's rationale: I propose removing "indoctrinators", and purging any non-hypnotists from the category, as the definition of such a person is vague at best and can include almost anyone who is a charismatic leader. There are better fitting categories such as :Category:Fictional commanders etc. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support rename. We should really reduce this "Fictional Xs and Ys" naming pattern as much we can. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Rename and purge per nom, an indoctrinator is quite something different. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus leaning keep. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Pharmacists from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian pharmacists

:Nominator's rationale: I propose broadening the scope of this category as right now there is no Russian pharmacist category, and the current category doesn't need to intersect with regime Mason (talk) 20:39, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

::However, see this comment from the page creator @Johnpacklambert [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Johnpacklambert#Category:Pharmacists_from_the_Russian_Empire_has_been_nominated_for_renaming] for a different opinion. Mason (talk) 23:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Political regime is not defining in this case. The nationality here is Russian. Place Clichy (talk) 00:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• One of the articles is in an Estonian category. We need to figure out how to treat Russian Empire people, Russian people and e.g. Estonian people in relationship to each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• :That's a fair point. I think that making an Estonian pharamist category and perhaps reparenting 19th-century estonian people would do the trick? Mason (talk) 15:19, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• : Our guide should be reliable sources. If someone is primarily defined as Estonian, then they should firstly be in a Estonian fooer category. If they are primarily defined as an Estonian within the Russian Empire, then in most cases I would place the article in three categories: Estonian fooers, Russian fooers and Estonians in the Russian Empire. This logic can be applied to every empire of every period of history, or for everybody whose RS-supported nationality is different from that of the state they lived in or its modern-day equivalent. Place Clichy (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* Russian fooers is inaccurate especially in case of e.g. Estonians. Fooers from the Russian Empire would be more accurate. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• :*: That's not always inaccurate. Military people who fought in a war and wore a Russian uniform, albeit by loyalty or obligation to the state, deserve to be called Russian. That's less obvious for pharmacists (although pharmacists also do military service like everyone I believe), that's why I'm inclined to go by reliable sources primarily. Place Clichy (talk) 11:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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• I still think it is better to call them "from the Russian Empire" in order to not confuse this with Russian ethnicity. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Keep as last comment. Being a subject of the Russian Empire and of Estonian ethnicity are not contradictory, as Estonia was part of the Empire at the time. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename/redirect.

• Redirect :Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to :Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro
• Rename :Category:2000s in Yugoslavia to :Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro (no redirect) (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:2000s in Yugoslavia to :Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

:Nominator's rationale: Uses ambiguous 'Yugoslavia'; it should be either this or Serbia and Montenegro, as the country spent 3 years as FRY and 3 as S&M in this decade. Joy (talk) 11:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but the target may well be renamed to :Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro and further populated with 2003-2006 content, since Serbia and Montenegro is the most recently used name for this country within this decade. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Rename and redirect, also rename and redirect original target :Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to :Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro. We already have :Category:2000s establishments in Serbia and Montenegro & :Category:2000s disestablishments in Serbia and Montenegro parenting FRY categories for 2000 to 2002. It is standard practice to use the later name in decade categories for a territory that changed its name within a decade. I'm sorry I missed this one when housekeeping after recent renames of the year categories, otherwise I would have done it under WP:G6. – Fayenatic London 22:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Change to rename without redirecting 2000s in Yugoslavia, but redirect Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. – Fayenatic London 12:12, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment This category has been emptied by two editors in this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Category:2000s in Yugoslavia only contained :Category:2000s in Yugoslav sport, which was renamed and redirected per consensus at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_24#Category:1992_in_Yugoslav_sport, and its template now automatically populates an FRY parent instead. This current discussion is still needed for renaming :Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to :Category:2000s in Serbia and Montenegro. After that, :Category:2000s in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport and :Category:Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport by decade‎ should be renamed using "Serbia & Montenegro" and populated with :Category:2004 in Montenegrin sport, :Category:2004 in Serbian sport etc (2003–2006). – Fayenatic London 13:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

::Yes, I just mentioned this fact, in case it could influence the closure decision. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete - now empty and unnecessary. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• The original page history should be moved the new name using "Serbia and Montenegro". I've changed my mind about a redirect at :Category:2000s in Yugoslavia – that is undesirable, as :Category:1990s in Yugoslavia has multiple successors, so the navigation links looking for 2000s in Yugoslavia should return nothing rather than a specific successor. However, we do also still need to redirect :Category:2000s in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. – Fayenatic London 12:12, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:45, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:1996 elections in Yugoslavia to :Category:1996 elections in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

:Nominator's rationale: Uses "Yugoslav" for FR Yugoslavia which is ambiguous. Used to be subcategorized under breakup of Yugoslavia, but that happened five years prior. Joy (talk) 11:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:2002–03 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ice hockey. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:2002–03 in Yugoslav ice hockey to :Category:2002–03 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ice hockey

:Nominator's rationale: This category at least has 2 entries, and they refer to the FR Yugoslavia team as such, happening just around the time of the rename to Serbia and Montenegro. Joy (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:2002 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|2001–02 in Yugoslav ice hockey}}

:Nominator's rationale: Same as the others, just has 2001 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships. Joy (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but merge to :Category:2002 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport (i.e. the new name of :Category:2002 in Yugoslav sport). Marcocapelle (talk) 14:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:2001 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|2000–01 in Yugoslav ice hockey}}

:Nominator's rationale: Uses "Yugoslav" for FR Yugoslavia which is ambiguous, contains just the single entry of the 2001 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships, while the team listed there is named Serbia and Montenegro men's national junior ice hockey team anyway. Joy (talk) 11:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but merge to :Category:2001 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport (i.e. the new name of :Category:2001 in Yugoslav sport). Marcocapelle (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:1997 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1996–97 in Yugoslav ice hockey}}

:Nominator's rationale: Uses "Yugoslav" for FR Yugoslavia which is ambiguous, contains just the single entry of the 1997 IIHF European U18 Championship, while the team listed there is named Serbia and Montenegro men's national under-18 ice hockey team anyway. Joy (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, but move the article to :Category:1997 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia sport (i.e. the new name of :Category:1997 in Yugoslav sport), instead of :Category:1997 in Serbian sport. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Makes sense, should I change the bolded action to say merge up? --Joy (talk) 14:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* Not really, if you agree with this small caveat then it is fine. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Collection of Walter P. Chrysler Museum to :Category:Collection of the Walter P. Chrysler Museum

:Nominator's rationale: Idiomatic English; cf. how the museum's name is treated in the article body: {{xt|The Walter P. Chrysler Museum was a car museum in Auburn Hills, Michigan}}... Ham II (talk) 10:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete/Rename if Kept The museum only existed 1999-2016 and these are already well categorized in :Category:Chrysler concept vehicles or the like. (If kept, by all means rename.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• :I have no objection to deleting the category. Ham II (talk) 22:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:48, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Maps of the Ottoman Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, it does not contain any article about a map. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 16:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:48, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Maps of empires to :Category:History maps by country

:Nominator's rationale: merge for now, there are only two subcategories which is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 16:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Bruneian people by period to :Category:Bruneian people

:* Propose merging :Category:Tunisian people by period to :Category:Tunisian people

:* Propose merging :Category:Chadian people by period to :Category:Chadian people

:* Propose merging :Category:Mauritanian people by period to :Category:Mauritanian people

:* Propose merging :Category:Gabonese people by period to :Category:Gabonese people

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. as there's only one category in here, and it doesn't help navigation Mason (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:Propose renaming:

:* :Category:Fictional demons and devils to :Category:Fictional demons

:** :Category:Fictional demons and devils by franchise to :Category:Fictional demons by franchise

:** :Category:Fictional demons and devils by medium to :Category:Fictional demons by medium

:Nominator's rationale: These new names would be shorter and more concise. AHI-3000 (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment (no oppose): if there aren't any fictional devils in here, and if this category is renamed, then :Category:Devils may be removed as a parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• :That's fine with me, "devil" is pretty much just a synonym for "demon" anyways. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:51, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:19th-century churches in Scotland to :Category:19th-century church buildings in Scotland

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping cat Mason (talk) 04:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Downmerge per nom, it is even identical rather than overlapping. (The parent categories need to be moved manually in case of a downmerge.) Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support -- obviously essentially identical. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:53, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Maps of former countries to :Category:History maps by country

:Nominator's rationale: There's only one category in this tree, and it's not helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, meanwhile there are two subcategories but that is still not very helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: dual merge as nominated. No opposition in a week. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 15:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Businesspeople from British Hong Kong to :Category:Hong Kong businesspeople and :Category:People from British Hong Kong

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category where the intersection isn't defining. There's no need to split category by which nation was in control of hong kong Mason (talk) 04:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Eli Lilly and Company and :Category:Clinical trials. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Clinical trials sponsored by Eli Lilly and Company to :Category:Eli Lilly and Company

:Nominator's rationale: Same deal, only one entry is a clinical trial and the other should be recategorized under :Category:Eli Lilly and Company brands (t · c) buidhe 03:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge also to :Category:Clinical trials. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:GSK plc and :Category:Clinical trials. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Clinical trials sponsored by GSK plc to :Category:GSK plc

:Nominator's rationale: Only one item in the category is a clinical trial; the other would be better categorized under "GSK plc brands‎" which is for drugs developed by GSK. I don't feel a one item category with little prospect of expansion (very few clinical trials are independently notable) (t · c) buidhe 03:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge also to :Category:Clinical trials. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Clinical trials sponsored by Bristol Myers Squibb to :Category:Drugs developed by Bristol Myers Squibb

:Nominator's rationale: Neither of the category's contents are clinical trials (t · c) buidhe 03:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 04:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Blanco family}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only two people (a husband-wife pair) in this category. It's not helpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, the articles are obviously directly interlinked, a category does not add any value. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete Per WP:NARROWCAT and already linked. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Holden family}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only two people (a father son pair) in this category. It's not helpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 01:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, the articles are obviously directly interlinked, a category does not add any value. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete Per WP:NARROWCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete narrow category, plus also highly ambiguous (as Holden is a reasonably common surname). Joseph2302 (talk) 17:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.