Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 10#Category:Temples of Dionysus

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Rulers of Frisia to :Category:Monarchs of Frisia

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:C2D main article List of monarchs of Frisia, which I just renamed after reaching agreement on the talk page, and re-parenting some (grand)child cats so that all would fit in the :Category:Monarchs tree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: option B (from foo). (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:03, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

;Option A

:* Propose renaming :Category:People of the Dutch East Indies to :Category:Dutch East Indies people

:* Propose renaming :Category:Netherlands New Guinea people to :Category:Dutch New Guinea people

;Option B

:* Propose renaming :Category:People of the Dutch East Indies to :Category:People from the Dutch East Indies

:* Propose renaming :Category:Netherlands New Guinea people to :Category:People from Dutch New Guinea

:Nominator's rationale: Option A would match {{c|Dutch East Indies people by century‎}} and its sub-cats. Option B changes "of" to "from" following recent precedents, but there are also recent precedents for the pattern in Option A. Note: the century sub-cats and :Category:People of the Dutch East Indies by occupation + its sub-cats can follow this CFD using the Speedy page. Fayenatic London 21:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support Option B per {{xt|People from Fooland}} precedents. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support either way, at least do not use "of". Marcocapelle (talk) 05:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support Option B as it avoids pseudo-demonym constructions. Plain English is best. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support Option A - using 'from' seems to involve a change of scope in the eyes of some editors. Do not use of and do change 'Netherlands' to 'Dutch' (per Dutch New Guinea). Oculi (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

:* What editors eyes see a change of scope? My eyes don't see a change. What change do your eyes see? My eyes also fail to see the nomination for "Emigrants from Venezuala" which you nominated. Can you point me to the discussion please? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

:*:'From' has been found to be clearer in a series of recent CfRs ever since the :Category:People from the Russian Empire precedent. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:01, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:02, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:American Sephardic Jews to :Category:American Sephardi Jews

:* Propose renaming :Category:American people of Sephardic-Jewish descent :Category:American people of Sephardi descent

:* Propose renaming :Category:People of Sephardic-Jewish descent to :Category:People of Sephardi descent

:* Propose renaming :Category:Cuban people of Sephardic-Jewish descent to :Category:Cuban people of Sephardi descent

:* Propose renaming :Category:Salvadoran people of Sephardic-Jewish descent to :Category:Salvadoran people of Sephardi descent

:* Propose renaming :Category:Mexican people of Sephardic-Jewish descent to :Category:Mexican people of Sephardi descent

:* Propose renaming :Category:17th-century American Sephardic Jews to :Category:17th-century American Sephardi Jews

:* Propose renaming :Category:20th-century American Sephardic Jews to :Category:20th-century American Sephardi Jews

:* Propose renaming :Category:21st-century American Sephardic Jews to :Category:21st-century American Sephardi Jews

:Nominator's rationale: "Sephardi" is used for all other Sephardi-related categories. These few are the only that use "Sephardic". Rename for consistency. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per main article Sephardic Jews, which was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1125709746#Requested_move_28_November_2022 moved to its current name on 28 November 2022 by consensus]. Therefore, the opposite should happen: all categories with "Sephardi" in it should be renamed "Sephardic" per WP:C2D. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Nl Leeuw. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:19, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose we should follow the main article to allow easy navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, but I note that consistency is overrated. We usually refer to Ashkenazi Jews, not Ashkenazic, but Sephardic Jews, not Sephardi. However, both Ashkenazic and Sephardi (along with Sephardim) can be used in text without confusion or looking particularly odd. It's not essential to make all related categories match each other; sometimes it makes sense, and other times it's better to follow common practice even when that creates inconsistency, especially when that's how people are likely to search for things. P Aculeius (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Fair. I'm not in a hurry to nominate all categories to make them comply with the main article, but if we are gonna make anything consistent, then WP:C2D should be followed rather than this nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: merge/rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:00, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Australia to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Australia

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Austria to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Austria

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Brazil to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Brazil

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Canada‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Canada

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Finland‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Finland

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of France to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of France

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Germany‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Germany

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Great Britain‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Great Britain

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Hungary‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Hungary

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Israel‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Israel

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Italy‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Italy

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of New Zealand‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of New Zealand

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Poland‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Poland

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Romania‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Romania

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Russia‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Russia

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Spain‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Spain

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of Ukraine‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of Ukraine

:* Propose moving :Category:Paracanoeists of the United States‎ to :Category:Paralympic canoeists of United States

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Australia‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Australia

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Austria to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Austria

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Canada‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Canada

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Finland‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Finland

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of France‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of France

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Great Britain‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Great Britain

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Italy‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Italy

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Japan‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Japan

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Morocco‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Morocco‎

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of the Netherlands‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of the Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:Paratriathletes of the Philippines‎ to :Category:Filipino triathletes and :Category:Paratriathletes

:* Propose merging :Category:Paratriathletes of Poland‎ to :Category:Polish triathletes and :Category:Paratriathletes

:* Propose merging :Category:Paratriathletes of Russia‎ to :Category:Russian triathletes and :Category:Paratriathletes

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of Spain‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of Spain

:* Propose merging :Category:Paratriathletes of Tunisia‎ to :Category:Tunisian triathletes and :Category:Paratriathletes

:* Propose moving :Category:Paratriathletes of the United States‎ to :Category:Paralympic triathletes of the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Currently included in the :Category:Paralympic competitors by sport and country, category names do not reflect that as all paratriathletes or likewise are not necessarily Paralympic competitors. Categories are formatted (or what to call it) as an Olympic/Paralympic category (Sportspeople of Foo instead of Fooian sportspeople) and I have not yet found any larger or longer-included parasport having a cross-category Category:Fooian (parasport)people from Category:(Parasport)people and Category:Fooian (sports)people.

:Four categories with one non-Paralympic connection are proposed merge. A couple have a single Paralympic connection, but small categories seem accepted in the sub-categorisation scheme.

:Note: One subcategory not included here, :Category:Paracanoeists of Tahiti, is currently proposed for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 30. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 17:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, using "para" twice sounds a bit odd. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :The two have para-, as the only two, starting their name in the 2020 Summer Paralympics and Summer Paralympic Games lists, but in Paralympic sports it is skipped. I have no problem skipping the second paras. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Query is there any notable paratriathlete who is not also a paralympian? In not, then the proposal would introduce a redundancy. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Parasportspeople tend to move between different sports and there are a couple of articles with people who have been Paralympic in one sport and noted in World championships or similar in another, two are David Blair (rower) and Charles Moreau (cyclist). These need to be recategorised afterwards. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Suggestion: just noticed this while replying to another proposal. Wouldn't it be simpler to say "paralympic canoeists" or "paralympic triathletes" instead of "paralympic paracanoeists" and "paralympic paratriathletes"? That is, assuming that there aren't any notable paracanoeists or paratriathletes who aren't paralympians, in which case the move might narrow the scope of the categories undesirably by excluding otherwise notable paracanoeists and paratriathletes, as suggested above. If the competitors are paralympians, shouldn't it be presumed that they're paracanoeists and paratriathletes? And is it terrible of me to wonder about skydiving as a paralympic sport? We could have "Paraguayan paralympic paraparachutists"... P Aculeius (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

:* That is the most intuitive solution and nom also replied earlier that they have no problem with it. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

• Updated nomination to match two comments about double "para" in proposed category names. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support revised nom with thanks to P Aculeius. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Films shot in Nordrhein-Westfalen to :Category:Films shot in North Rhine-Westphalia

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D. snapsnap ^(talk) 16:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. This nomination could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 10:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. The current title has no meaning in English. Dimadick (talk) 07:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Countries and territories where Hungarian is an official language and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:40, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories to :Category:Countries and territories where Hungarian is an official language

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent :Category:Countries and territories by official language, children :Category:Municipalities in Slovakia where Hungarian is an official language and :Category:Populated places in Croatia where Hungarian is an official language.

:Follow-up to "Category:Countries and territories by language", "Category:Hungarian-speaking territorial units in Croatia", and "Category:Hungarian communities in Slovakia". Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• This would have the strange consequence that Székely Land which is largely about the Hungarian-speaking people in that region who are denied any official status would be excluded from the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes, but the reason why both its parent and its two children were renamed with {{tq|official language}} is exactly because any other standard than official language is WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:SUBJECTIVECAT, WP:NONDEFINING, and suffers from problems of WP:V and WP:OR. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• :* "Official" works in some countries but not in others, dependent on politics towards ethnic minorities. There is no WP:OR here, Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article beyond any doubt. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
• :*:That {{xt|Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article}} is true, but there is no justification for claiming the entirety of "Székely Land" as a "Hungarian-speaking territory". If it can (still) even be called a "territory" (which it officially ceased to be in 1876). Definitions of what "Székely Land" even is vary widely, and neither the former borders nor the "proposed borders" coincide with the Hungarian-language majority areas: :File:Szekely Land issues.svg. The Szekler National Council apparently thinks it's okay to claim areas with Romanian-speaking majorities including the city of Târgu Mureș as part of "Székely Land", which is really questionable. I do not think we should go along with dubious nationalistic claims that are factually incorrect.
• :*:In short: "Székely Land" is in :Category:Székely Land (a grandchild of :Category:Hungarians in Romania) and :Category:Historical regions of Transylvania, which is correct. But :Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories is a misleading category for this item, I must insist that it is WP:OR. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose create the target anyway and have it as a child of :Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories . Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• :That wouldn't solve the WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:SUBJECTIVECAT, WP:NONDEFINING, WP:V, and WP:OR issues for which its parent and children were renamed. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children. I could do what you ask, and separately create the target cat and fill it with the two subcats and all items that belong in it, but then I'm gonna CfD the current cat later anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ CfR is just easier and more straightforward. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename and purge as needed. Both the subcats and the parent category, :Category:Countries and territories by official language, follow this naming format. (None of the sibling categories in that tree use this naming format though, but this seems well reasoned, matches recent discusisons, and can be a start for the rest.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Exactly, I'm using this as the most obvious test case after all three were recently renamed in conjunction with each other for the same reasons. This category in between is the missing link between the three. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Apparently, this is a "test case" for wide ranging changes to the "-speaking countries and territories‎" category tree. I do not think that we should be altering the tree in that way - "official language" is often highly misleading and makes the defining point whatever the powerful happen to say, instead of the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is). Furius (talk) 21:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• :It is the logical next step after consensus was reached about the parent :Category:Countries and territories by official language. By your logic, we would have to un-parent all subcategories for which "official language" was not the DEFINING element. But I demonstrated that "official language" was in fact already explicitly the DEFINING element for 8 subcategories. Moreover, consensus was also reached about renaming the two grandchildren (this category's children) on the basis of official language status as well: :Category:Municipalities in Slovakia where Hungarian is an official language and :Category:Populated places in Croatia where Hungarian is an official language.
• :On what basis other than official language would you want to define :Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories, the category in between? How do you propose we categorise {{xt|the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is)}}, without turning it into an WP:ARBITRARYCAT? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
• Update Sibling :Category:German-speaking countries and territories has been renamed :Category:Countries and territories where German is an official language.

: Sibling :Category:Greek-speaking countries and territories has been renamed :Category:Countries and territories where Greek is an official language.

: Sibling :Category:Portuguese-speaking countries and territories has been renamed :Category:Countries and territories where Portuguese is an official language.

: Niece :Category:Italian-speaking territorial units in Croatia has been renamed :Category:Populated places in Croatia where Italian is an official language. This category's parent :Category:Italian-speaking countries and territories is now in the same situation as :Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories, and I have CfR'd it as well. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:57, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Asian Games judo venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Continental Basketball League arenas}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Asian Games basketball venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Southeast Asian Games basketball venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Southwest Conference baseball tournament venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Southland Conference baseball tournament venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Swedish Bandy Final venues}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Bandy World Championships stadiums}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:OCVENUE. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:*Comment One of the nominated categories was renamed out of process by WP:CFDS. The nomination has been updated. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete none of the articles I clicked through were purpose built stadiums. -RevelationDirect (talk) 01:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic footballers of Russia to :Category:Olympic footballers from the Russian Empire

:Nominator's rationale: All 14 entries in this category played in the 1912 Summer Olympics representing the Russian Empire. Russian Empire has its own Russian Empire at the Olympics article and its own half-filled :Category:Olympic competitors from the Russian Empire. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 16:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename makes sense. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename to reflect historically accurate name. GiantSnowman 18:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|LUV Graz players}}

:Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the men's team is notable (the women's team is under a separate category :Category:DFC LUV Graz players). Men's club did not play above the fifth tier in Austria in 27 years. The "article" LUV Graz is a just a redirect to women's club. Geregen2 (talk) 15:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per above. –Aidan721 (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete Vladica Grujic doesn't treat it as defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:King lists to :Category:Regnal lists

::* Propose re-parenting to ??? (please make some good suggestions, I'm at a loss) :Category:Documents AND :Category:Inscriptions, remove entirely from the Lists tree

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D main article Regnal list. Also to avoid confusion with :Category:Lists of monarchs (which regularly happens).

:Re-parenting We may even have to take it out of its parent category :Category:Lists of monarchs to avoid confusion and because it may not be is the proper place for it, but its grandparent :Category:Monarchy-related lists maybe? and per Marcocapelle {{xt|entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.}} The problem is: how else would we categorise Regnal list and this category? And its most basic, regnal lists are just :Category:Texts, but they may be :Category:Documents (on paper) or :Category:Inscriptions (carved in clay, stone, rock, wood etc., like the Abydos King List), so we can't specify it further. The alternative would be to put

:Put regnal lists in both :Category:Documents AND :Category:Inscriptions?, because they can be written on documents like paper/papyrus/parchment etc. or inscribed into clay tablets, stone walls, rock, wood etc.

:What else might we add? :Category:Sequences in time, perhaps? :Category:Lines of succession seems to be about future successions, not past successions. Regnal lists do not claim what should happen, but what has happened already. (Although they may sometimes be inaccurate or fraudulous, they make claims about past sequences of people who have been monarchs in/over a particular area/state or people/society/community). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:29, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Sorry but I don't see a real distinction between King lists and Lists of monarchs. Can you give a few examples of some king who would be in one but not the other? Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :@Laurel Lodged For example, the Sumerian King List#Rulers in the Sumerian King List "Antediluvian rulers" who each allegedly reigned for more than 20,000 years are not mentioned in the List of Mesopotamian dynasties, because {{tq|the pre-Sargonic part of the SKL must be considered fictional. Many of the rulers in the pre-Sargonic part (i.e. prior to Sargon of Akkad) of the list must therefore be considered as purely fictional or mythological characters to which reigns of hundreds of years were assigned.}} Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• ::The commentary at List of Mesopotamian dynasties#Early dynastic period (c. 2900–2350 BC) further explains why the Sumerian King List (SKL) is not used as a source for kings for the Early Dynastic period, unless other contemporary sources corroborate the SKL. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:::: That seems to point to a parent/child relationship rather than parallel tree structures. That is "Legendary Sumerian kings" as a child of "Sumerian kings". No? So the remedy is renaming, not merging. No? Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::@Laurel Lodged Not quite. The Sumerian King List is a group of clay tablets with text carved into them. It exists physically, outside of Wikipedia.

:::::The List of Mesopotamian dynasties is a web page on Wikipedia, which compiles information from a number of sources (either physical or digital). It does not exist outside the Internet. We Wikipedians created it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• (e/c) I think a simpler explanation would be that this category is about a group of real-life historical documents that happen to be lists, rather than Wikipedia list articles, which is what Category:Lists of monarchs covers. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes that's what I'm trying to say, except that inscriptions into clay tablets, stone walls etc. aren't "documents". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:::On wiki, "list" means a wiki list. If it's a clay tablet, then that's a whole other thing. A new nmae, but not a neologism, is needed for this situation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

::::That's why I propose ":Category:Regnal lists" per WP:C2D main article Regnal list. My only question is how it should be parented. My current suggestions for parents are:

::::* :Category:Monarchy-related lists per Marcocapelle {{xt|entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.}}

::::* :Category:Sequences in time?

::::* :Category:Documents AND :Category:Inscriptions per Paul_012

::::::^ These cats are about the medium/material by which these regnal lists have been recorded. Most of the Regnal list#Historical examples are carved in stone walls, the Sumerian King List is carved in clay tablets, the Turin King List is written on papyrus, so only that last one is a "document". (Technically, a list of monarchs on Wikipedia is a digital regnal list, the medium being "the Internet/Wikipedia", so :Category:Lists of monarchs should be in :Category:Regnal lists rather than the other way around, but that's MOS:SELFREF, WP:CIRC, "breaking the fourth wall" etc., and generally just plain silly).

::::Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::I'm not sure but perhaps :Category:Archaeological artifacts might qualify for all the non-document regnal lists, i.e. the inscriptions of successive series of monarchs carved into clay, stone, rock, wood etc.. For the "document" regnal lists written on paper, papyrus, parchment etc. :Category:Reference works might actually suit, because that's what it's basically is: a collection of information for reference purposes just in case anyone forgets which king or queen ruled when and in which order. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom and entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Good point. Then I'll scrap "Category:Monarchy-related lists" from the potential parents suggestions. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename to match article and reparent to :Category:Documents and :Category:Inscriptions. No need to over-think it. The dictionary definition of inscription does include written and printed words, and the documents category concerns the topical information recorded (whatever the medium), so they're different dimensions. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:29, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Thanks for the clarification! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per the main article. I'll defer to other editors on the parent cats. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
• {{comment}} And Leave and I have had a very good and constructive discussion to rename List of legendary monarchs of Ethiopia to 1922 regnal list of Ethiopia, and split off the Regnal lists of Ethiopia as a separate article, in part because of WP:TOOBIG, but also in order to better make this distinction between Wikipedia lists of monarchs on the one hand, and regnal lists which exist in documents/inscriptions outside of Wikipedia on the other. And Leave has done a great job of gathering all this information and improving it so that it is clear what it is about. This case further illustrates the need to distinguish Wikipedia lists of monarchs and document/inscription regnal lists. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:52, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Southeast Asian monarchs to :Category:Monarchs in Southeast Asia

::* Propose adding parent :Category:Heads of state in Southeast Asia

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C Follow-up to recent renaming of parent :Category:Asian monarchs to :Category:Monarchs in Asia. Parent is already in :Category:Heads of state in Asia, so child should be in :Category:Heads of state in Southeast Asia. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Another good catch, thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :You're welcome! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:51, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Lists of African monarchs to :Category:Lists of monarchs in Africa

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C Follow-up to the recent renaming of :Category:African monarchs to :Category:Monarchs in Africa (and :Category:African kings to :Category:Kings in Africa). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:57, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Another good catch, thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• :@Laurel Lodged you're welcome! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Ich bin ein Star – Holt mich hier raus! participants}}

:Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a WP:PERFCAT. --woodensuperman 12:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete the premise is that they're already celebrities so this isn't defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Weather events in Alaska to :Category:Natural disasters in Alaska

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 12:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Keep it's part of a "by state" parent category. Has growth potential. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:* There is only one state sibling :Category:Weather events in Hawaii. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: A weather event must affect human communities and cause damage to be considered a disaster. This does not seem to be the case for one of the members of the nominated category. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Damage was estimated at $24 million. It seems reasonable to keep it in the disasters tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:**That's the 2011 event. I was referring to the 2014 one. --Paul_012 (talk) 05:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

:*** OK. I would still merge the 2014 one too for consistency. This is an exceptional case because the disaster happened in a largely uninhabited area where it could do no harm. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, possibly also merge to :Category:Climate of Alaska. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:49, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (Australian TV series) participants}}

:Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a WP:PERFCAT. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 9#Category:I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (British TV series) participants. --woodensuperman 12:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom, just another performance. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Al-Ittihad Club (Jeddah) templates}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only contains 1 template, which I have added into :Category:Saudi Arabia football club navigational boxes. – Fayenatic London 11:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, move to {{cat|Al-Ittihad Club (Jeddah)}} as well. GiantSnowman 18:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• :That would go against WP:CAT#T: {{tq|Templates are not articles, and thus do not belong in content categories}}. S.A. Julio (talk) 04:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Thailand in fiction by medium to :Category:Works set in Thailand

:Nominator's rationale: Not sure what the difference in intended scope of these recent categories is, if any. The nominated one is a few days older, but doesn't appear to be part of an established tree, hence the merge suggestion. Paul_012 (talk) 10:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I agree its redundant and the "works set in by country" category has a better established tree than the fiction by medium.4meter4 (talk) 12:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per WP:OVERLAPCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Aphrodite}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Apollo}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Ares}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Artemis}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Asclepius}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Athena}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Demeter}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Dionysus}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Hermes}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Persephone}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Poseidon}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Hera}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Temples of Zeus}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME. Same as :Category:Churches by Patron Saint.Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: it is a subcategory to the usefull category "Category:Temples by deity", and Greek deities should not be treated differently from other deities. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding of the category. The temples were not actually named for example "Temple of Artemis". Indeed, we often do not even know the actual name of these temples. The categories are meant to sort ancient greek temples after the deity the temple was dedicated to. Just like we have the category "Category:Kali temples", to find temples dedicated to the goddes Kali, we should have "Category:Temples of Artemis" to find temples dedicated to goddess Artemis, etc. There should be no difference between Greek gods and Hindu gods in this respect. The category of Greek temples was already to large before these sub-categories were created.--Aciram (talk) 10:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

::* {{Ping|Aciram}} with apologies to {{Ping|Paul_012}} You say "it is a subcategory to the usefull category "Category:Temples by deity"". If that is true, then it is also true for :Category:Churches by Patron Saint which is also parented to :Category:Temples by deity. Your objections are therefore contradictory. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:01, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I am sorry, but I do not understand your conclusion. This is not a question of the name of a building- It is a question of the building being dedicated to the worship of different dieties. If you want to delete this category, you will have to empty and delete the entire "Category:Temples by deity" and each subcategory it contains. It is not the same thing with :Category:Churches by Patron Saint. The Christian churches all worship the same god, even if they are dedicated to different saints. They are not included in the "Category:Temples by deity". In the cases of :Category:Churches by Patron Saint, it is sorted by the names of buildings, not by the worship of different gods. Because of all these things, it is not contradictive at all, and very different cases. Not that I have ever even been aware of the Category:Churches by Patron Saint-discussion in the first place, but since you brought it up. --Aciram (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

:*Reply the policy Unrelated subjects with shared names has "Churches named for St. Dunstan" as an example of what not to do. How is "Temples named for Zeus" any different? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:**Unlike Catholic churches which are all dedicated to the worship of the same Christian God regardless of their name, these Greek temples are different sects worshipping different gods, so the categorization is very much a matter of reigious practice, not of mere naming. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Keep all. Mistaken notion on nominator's part, per above. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Temples dedicated to the worship of Zeus are dedicated to the same god - Zeus. Since they are physically separate temples and the only thing that they share is their dedication to the same named deity, then the above rule covers this situation. Please outline the "Mistaken notion". Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:**Sorry, I don't know how I can better explain this. You're claiming that the religious practices of the temples are mere names. That's the mistaken notion. It's like claiming that all Anglican church categories should be deleted because they're just churches named "Anglican church", etc. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

::* You say "it is a subcategory to the usefull category "Category:Temples by deity"". If that is true, then it is also true for :Category:Churches by Patron Saint which is also parented to :Category:Temples by deity. Your objections {{Ping|Paul_012}} are therefore contradictory. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

::**(1) I wasn't the one who said that, and (2) sorry, but I can't quite tell if you're being obtuse on purpose. I don't have any further responses. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• Keep per above discussion. This is about the main subject of worship in each of these temples. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Keep per above. The link between the buildings in e.g. :Category:Temples of Poseidon is not their shared name (and indeed temples {{em|not}} known as the Temple of Poseidon, such as the Temple of Isthmia, are included in the category) but their shared use as temples for the worship of a particular god. In contrast, the various churches of St. Dunstan which the nominator keeps drawing an analogy to are {{em|not}} used for the worship of St. Dunstan particularly, but for the Christian God. These categories are more akin to :Category:Mosques or :Category:Church buildings, which one hopes nobody would consider based on a non-defining shared name! Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Keep as they are. As others have noted, this is about worship by deity, not mere dedication to a particular theme, as is the case with the patron saints of churches, which do not involve different subjects of worship. To be fair, I would not object to churches by patron saint, except that the categories would be overwhelmed by the vast number of entries under the most common names, and the fact that the churches would cross various denominational lines—a concept that does not really apply to the nominated categories, but which would potentially make the categories non-defining for churches. Even so, I think the practical objection may be the stronger one, since it cannot be easily accommodated even through sorting by denomination. There is no similar objection to the much more modest number of temples from antiquity. P Aculeius (talk) 12:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose This is not a shared name, this is the specific deity worshipped. Dimadick (talk) 07:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Keep -- These were places for the worship of the god or goddess. This differs from churches, which are for the worship of God Almighty, but have a patron saint, whose name they bear. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
• Keep - The god to which the temple was dedicated is probably its most defining characteristic. Furius (talk) 00:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:European rulers to :Category:Rulers in Europe

:* Propose renaming :Category:African rulers to :Category:Rulers in Africa

:* Propose renaming :Category:Asian rulers to :Category:Rulers in Asia

:Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to recently renamed "European monarchs" > ":Category:Monarchs in Europe" etc. per WP:C2C. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:Note: the reason why :Category:Oceanian rulers, :Category:North American rulers and :Category:South American rulers are not nominated here, is because each of them is currently a WP:SMALLCAT, and being proposed for downmerging. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support -- Most of the sub-cats are about "rulers", but none ruled the whole of Europe. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:44, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Uyghur sub-ethnic groups}}

:Nominator's rationale: None of the articles in it appear to be Uyghur sub-ethnic groups. I was reviewing the articles in the category and removing them as I did if it didn't appear that they were sub-ethnic groups of Uyghurs and noticed that this seemed to apply to all of them. For the purposes of review, the articles I removed were Taranchi, Äynu people, Dolan people, and Yugurs. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 06:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Insofar applicable, the articles are already in :Category:Ethnic groups in Xinjiang. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment As the nominator states, this category has been emptied. Please do not do this if you are going to nominate a category for a deletion discussion. It kind of makes the whole discussion pointless. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:41, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:42, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Dadaist to :Category:Dadaists

:Nominator's rationale: This should be renamed to plural. Some subcategories are already renamed (German dadaists‎), others need a rename (ex. American dadaist‎, Italian Dadaist‎ - that one is even pointlessly capitalized). This should be a non-controversial technical request, I think... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. This could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename/Support set cat. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:31, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

:* {{ping|RevelationDirect}} I guess you intend to support renaming rather than deletion, right? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:01, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Correct, fixed. RevelationDirect (talk) 18:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

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