Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 8#Category:Explorers by ethnicity

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:1818 establishments in Illinois Territory to :Category:1818 establishments in Illinois

:Nominator's rationale: Illinois was granted statehood in 1818 and thus Illinois Territory became Illinois. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Most of these establishments took place before Illinois became a state. The transition happened by December 3rd. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Many are political positions that were established when Illinois was granted statehood. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• :* That is also true. I won't oppose. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: selectively merge to :Category:Armenian-language singers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting:

:*{{lc|Ethnic Armenian composers}}

:*{{lc|Category:Ethnic Armenian women singers}}

:*{{lc|Category:Ethnic Armenian male singers}}

:*{{lc|Category:Ethnic Armenian singers}}

:*{{lc|Category:Ethnic Armenian musicians}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:EGRS/I: intersection of ethnicity and occupation (and sometimes gender) is not defining. Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agree, but selectively merge to :Category:Armenian-language singers. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, as it is not because you have Armenian ancestors that your music automatically is Armenian music. Indeed, articles for which the subject is commonly and consistently defined as Armenian singer/musician/composer in reliable sources should be merged to the category so named. Place Clichy (talk) 23:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:French writers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Writers from the Duchy of Savoy to :Category:Writers from Savoy

:Nominator's rationale: rename or upmerge, small cat Mason (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:French writers, as the single article is about someone who was largely active in France. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from Savoy. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from the Duchy of Savoy to :Category:People from Savoy

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping under populated category Mason (talk) 20:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from the Spanish colonial Philippines. No prejudice against recreation if and when the category can be better populated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Spanish people in the Spanish Philippines to :Category:People from the Spanish colonial Philippines

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping cat: People of Spanish colonial Philippines Mason (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge for now with no prejudice to recreation when it is populated better. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Updated target to WP:CFD/S process. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from the Spanish East Indies. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People of the Spanish East Indies to :Category:People from the Spanish East Indies

:Nominator's rationale: duplicate Mason (talk) 20:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, clearly a duplicate. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Viceroyalty of New Granada people. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People of the Viceroyalty of New Granada to :Category:Viceroyalty of New Granada people

:Nominator's rationale: duplicate Mason (talk) 20:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, clearly a duplicate. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Dutch brewers. Because the nominated category contains only one member, whether this is a single or dual merge is a matter of semantics that would be pointless to discuss for another week. I will add Cornelis Boudewijns to both :Category:Dutch brewers and :Category:Businesspeople from the Dutch Republic, as the article belongs in both categories. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Brewers from the Dutch Republic to :Category:Dutch brewers

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping underpopulated category where the regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 20:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, also to :Category:Businesspeople from the Dutch Republic. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 23:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Dutch painters and :Category:People from the Dutch Republic. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Painters from the Dutch Republic to :Category:Dutch painters

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping underpopulated category where the regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, also to :Category:People from the Dutch Republic. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. About the dual merge, although the Dutch Republic, the Batavian Republic and the Kingdom of Holland are different political regimes that preceded the present-day Netherlands with slightly different borders, they are in essence the same nation, and Dutch applies to all of them. Place Clichy (talk) 23:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• : But businesspeople and painters are a very defining intersection with the Dutch Republic (per Dutch Golden Age). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• :: Belonging to an artistic movement is notable and defining. In this case, this is reflected by:
• ::* {{Cl|Dutch Golden Age painters}}, a child of {{Cl|17th-century Dutch painters}} <= {{Cl|17th-century Dutch people by occupation}} <= {{Cl|17th-century Dutch people}} <={{Cl|People from the Dutch Republic}},
• ::* and through another chain {{Cl|Dutch Golden Age painters}} <= {{Cl|Dutch Golden Age artists}} <= {{Cl|Art of the Dutch Golden Age}} <= {{Cl|Art movements in Dutch painting}} / {{Cl|Dutch Golden Age art and literature}} <= {{Cl|Dutch Golden Age}} <= {{Cl|Culture of the Dutch Republic}}.
• :: Note that Dutch Golden Age painting is not exclusively associated with the Dutch Republic and is closely related with e.g. Flemish Baroque painting, the Antwerp school and Peter Paul Rubens. Place Clichy (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Single merge per Place Clichy. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge both categories to :Category:People from the Dutch East Indies of Chinese descent. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People of the Dutch East Indies of Chinese descent to :Category:People from the Dutch East Indies of Chinese descent

:* Propose merging :Category:People of Chinese descent in the Dutch East Indies to :Category:People from the Dutch East Indies of Chinese descent

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, obvious duplicates. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

:* @User:Marcocapelle, found another one Mason (talk) 18:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::* No way! What a mess. Merge all. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Explorers except for :Category:Viking explorers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting:

:*{{lc|Explorers by ethnicity}}

:* {{lc|Category:Arab explorers}}

:* {{lc| Basque explorers}}

:* {{lc|Category:Viking explorers}}

:* {{lc|Category:Berber explorers}}

:* {{lc|Category:Cossack explorers}}

:* {{lc|Category:Native Hawaiian explorers}}

:* {{lc|Category:Raiatean explorers}}

:Nominator's rationale: This and all subcategories should be deleted as WP:EGRS/I violations; these intersections are not defining. Edward-Woodrow • talk 17:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::* Are we also to delete :Category:Viking warriors?

::Gjs238 (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose, this nomination is only meaningful when the subcategories are nominated in conjunction (listed and tagged). Marcocapelle (talk) 18:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• :{{ping|Marcocapelle}} {{Done}} 21:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• :* Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Viking explorers for whom this intersection is very defining, manually merge the remainder to :Category:Explorers per WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Keep {{C|Viking explorers}}, selectively merge the rest. When I saw Arab explorers I expected to find travelers from the Arab Golden Age such as Ibn Battuta, but I found the likes of Iraqi journalist {{Oldid2|1177320317|Younis Bahri}} (1900–1979), which shows how such a category can be wrongly used. Per WP:CATDEF, we primarily define people by their nationality, and ethnicity is only worth mentioning if it has a substantial bearing on both the topic and the individual, according to reliable sources. Taking the example of Ibn Battuta, today both categorized in Berber explorers and Moroccan explorers (as well as 14th-century Berber people and 10 other travel-related categories), his Berber background is not pertinent enough to his career and travels to justify a category, as opposed for instance to his education as a Maliki scholar or his status in Merinid Marocco. The chronological ethnic category and the national occupation category are sufficient to define him. Place Clichy (talk) 09:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Selective Merge - I was going to say Keep on the Hawaiian one, til I saw that 2 out of three seem to just be travelers, so some pruning may be in order. I also think that, if we're going to do a mass merge, that :Category:Indigenous explorers of the Americas should be created, comparable to :Category:Indigenous sailors of the Americas. I would be very surprised if Naukane is the only member. Sacagawea comes immediately to mind, and I have no doubt that there are more. See also::Category:Polynesian explorers of the Pacific. - jc37 10:16, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 01:03, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Stock exchanges in Bahrain}}

:Nominator's rationale: Bahrain Bourse (BHB) is the only licensed stock exchange of the Kingdom of Bahrain [https://www.bahrain.bh/wps/portal/en/BNP/HomeNationalPortal/ContentDetailsPage/!ut/p/z0/fY5BT8JAEIX_ynroeactNHgENSCRVIwQ3AvZlmkdWXbL7rTRf--KJl6Mx5f53nxPKrmTyuqBWs3krDYxv6hin96PYTG5AXi8HWWw3l4_FbNVCqt5LpdSRWBRQpFmk2xZ5nc5TMuH2XrzvIVyA18f6O18VlOpamcZ31nusHVD5zxrs0ebwECBWFT61WuKsQ_Y9EaQbZw_XYYk0CIz2VZoEWH9Y_1n1l_WynYX3YfrvTDUYFT8Wqs-kMUQhLaHeBgw8AktJ-DRaMaDYNdRHSIY6wG_ucCuPgbZHVU1Nu3VJ1l826g!/#:~:text=The%20Bahrain%20Bourse%20(BHB)%20is,Sukuk%2C%20REITs%20and%20Treasury%20Bills. source]. We don't need a category for a single entry. Uhooep (talk) 17:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::It's bad practice to empty a category prior to CfD. –Aidan721 (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

:::I didn't know. I've undone the action. Uhooep (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::::Thank you for reverting that emptying, Uhooep. If this discussion closes as Delete, then the category will be emptied. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, not part of a large established tree, only 40 out of 200 countries have a subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. Note that the nominated categories were both moved per WP:C2 during the discussion (from "foo by state" to "foo by state or territory"). (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 20:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state to :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic K–8 schools in the United States by state to :Category:Catholic K–8 schools in the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer. –Aidan721 (talk) 14:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, only one subcategory in each. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge as proposed as well as to :Category:People from the Kingdom of Serbia. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Architects from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian architects

:* Propose merging :Category:Artists from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian artists

:* Propose merging :Category:Aviators from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian aviators

:* Propose merging :Category:Musicians from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian musicians

:* Propose merging :Category:Painters from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian painters

:* Propose merging :Category:Poets from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian poets

:* Propose merging :Category:Sportspeople from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian sportspeople

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from the Kingdom of Serbia to :Category:Serbian writers

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping, underpopulated, category where the intersection with the political regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 14:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, also to :Category:Kingdom of Serbia people. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Might as well make that :Category:People from the Kingdom of Serbia to avoid a double move. – Fayenatic London 09:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, absolutely. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Government of Bangsamoro. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Government in Bangsamoro to :Category:Government of Bangsamoro

:Nominator's rationale: Bangsamoro, unlike every other region in the Philippines, has its own government. HueMan1 (talk) 11:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::Rename per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 20:01, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|People from the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, Albania was part of the Ottoman Empire so a separate descent category is not very meaningful in this case. "Albanian" is not defining for the one article in the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support, but I do wonder if creating a redirect to People of Albanian descent OR Albanian people from the Ottoman Empire, might be helpful in discouraging the page's recreation Mason (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete. Articles whose subject is defined as Albanian are found at {{Cl|Albanians from the Ottoman Empire}}, but this is not the case for the lone article Enver Pasha. Place Clichy (talk) 23:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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