Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 27#Category:Deified Roman men

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Melodeon. :Category:Scottish melodeonists will be merged as well. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Melodeonists by nationality}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only one nationality in this category Mason (talk) 23:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• There is only one article in the entire tree. I would rather suggest merging :Category:Scottish melodeonists to :Category:Melodeon. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• :I'd support that. Mason (talk) 01:04, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• :* I have tagged :Category:Scottish melodeonists as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename.

• Rename :Category:9th century in the Holy Roman Empire to :Category:9th century in the Carolingian Empire
• Rename :Category:9th-century people of the Holy Roman Empire to :Category:9th-century people of the Carolingian Empire
• Rename :Category:9th-century bishops in the Holy Roman Empire to :Category:9th-century bishops in the Carolingian Empire
• Rename :Category:9th-century women from the Holy Roman Empire to :Category:9th-century women from the Carolingian Empire (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:22, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|9th century in the Holy Roman Empire}}

::* Propose deleting {{lc|9th-century people of the Holy Roman Empire}}

::* Propose deleting {{lc|9th-century bishops in the Holy Roman Empire}}

::* Propose deleting {{lc|9th-century women from the Holy Roman Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: Holy Roman Empire didn't really exist until the coronation of Otto I in 962. (it's arguable that the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire was 800 when Charlemagne was crowned). But in this case the category is extremely underpopulated. Mason (talk) 23:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose There is scope for expansion, since the Carolingian Empire categories just cover the early phases of the Holy Roman Empire. Dimadick (talk) 05:19, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Rename/merge to "Carolingian Empire" per WP:OVERLAPCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Australian convict women to :Category:Women convicts transported to Australia

:Nominator's rationale: Something to make it clearer who belongs in the category, parent is "Convicts transported to Australia" Mason (talk) 21:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:51, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|18+}}

:Nominator's rationale: This category is blatant nonsense. —theMainLogan (t•c) 21:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Speedy delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 05:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Radio in Senegambia}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category since there is no content beside for the separate countries. Trivial intersection between geographical region and media. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

::delete. I agree that this is trivial intersection Mason (talk) 00:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Yugoslav Albanians. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 23:33, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Albanians in Yugoslavia to :Category:Yugoslav Albanians

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping cat Mason (talk) 15:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• {{Comment}} It seems to me "Albanians in Yugoslavia" has Albanians by nationality, whereas "Yugoslav Albanians" has Albanians by ethnicity (i.e. Kosovo Albanians from SAP Kosovo). This is not made clear by category names, however. –Vipz (talk) 11:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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• {{ping|Vipz}} it seems that all three articles in :Category:Albanians in Yugoslavia are ethnic Albanians, so merging is justifiable. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• :It's a "it just so happens" situation that Albanians by nationality in this category are also Albanians by ethnicity. What we're essentially doing by the merge is deleting a nationality category in favor of an ethnicity category. Anyway, what differentiates it from its parent category, :Category:Yugoslav people of Albanian descent? –Vipz (talk) 10:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• :* {{ping|Vipz}} :Category:Yugoslav people of Albanian descent is for Yugoslavia-born people whose parents (or possibly grandparents) migrated from the state of Albania to Yugoslavia. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge. Too much overlap, and too much risk of confusion for editors. We categorized first and foremost by defining characteristics, and if someone is defined as an Albanian that's how we should describe them as well. We don't ask articles their passport. In some cases it is very clear which precise citizenship an individual held at a given time (this stuff tends to change over time), but in many many cases this notion is too blurry to assume we would be able to tell the difference well enough to have separate categories between several kinds of Yugoslav Albanians. Place Clichy (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Albanian-language writers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Ethnic Albanian writers to :Category:Writers of Albanian descent

:Nominator's rationale: parent category is being requested to merge Mason (talk) 15:19, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, ethnicity is something different than descent from an emigrant. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:08, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Delete. These are just two poorly-categorized articles. In principle, per the reasoning at this CfD about "ethnic" Armenians writers, I would be in favour of placing someone predominantly defined as an Albanian writer directly in {{Cl|Albanian writers}}. However, this does not seem to be the case here. Kristina Gentile Mandala's ethnicity is better defined as {{C|Arbëreshë people}}, which is even more precise that Albanian, and that's where the article is already categorized. Idriz Ajeti is already in {{C|Yugoslav Albanians}} and {{C|Kosovo Albanians}}, as well as several Kosovo-related categories (which is in majority Albanian) and in {{C|Albanologists}}. The occupational intersection brings nothing, and the supposed defining link between these two biographies is very thin. One could argue to add both articles to {{Cl|Albanian-language writers}}, though. Place Clichy (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• : I would also support renaming as nom in the spirit of consensus as a better outcome than keeping things as they are. However I still believe that of Albanian descent is not the appropriate way to describe the two individuals involved, and I consider that {{Cl|Albanian-language writers}} is a better definition of what they are. {{Re|Smasongarrison|Marcocapelle}} what do you think is the appropriate action to take? Place Clichy (talk) 08:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::I feel similar to @Place Clichy. FWIW, I don't love my original proposal, but wanted to suggest *anything* that might be an improvement. How would merging the category into people of albanian descent sound, without opposition to creating Writers of Albanian descent if that hit a critical mass, and then purging the category? Mason (talk) 11:51, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::: Then I suggest to merge to {{Cl|Albanian-language writers}}. For writers, their language of expression may be the most clear sign of the cultural identification. Place Clichy (talk) 13:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• :::* Merging to {{Cl|Albanian-language writers}} is an excellent solution, for writers language is the most defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:German scientists. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Scientists from the German Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 15:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:German scientists. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge to :Category:German scientists. The German Empire (1871-1918) was a German nation-state (unlike Holy Roman Empire), and its inhabitants can be primarily called Germans. No need to create occupational intersection categories with every regime change. Place Clichy (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:German scientists. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:German artists. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Artists from the German Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 15:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:German artists. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge to :Category:German artists. The German Empire (1871-1918) was a German nation-state (unlike Holy Roman Empire), and its inhabitants can be primarily called Germans. No need to create occupational intersection categories with every regime change. Place Clichy (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:German artists. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:German architects. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Architects from the German Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 15:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:German architects. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• Keep & populate Surely there were more than 2. The country existed almost half a century in relatively recent history. The last ones will have died in the early 21st century. NLeeuw (talk) 04:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• :The problem is that JLP makes these empire categories and then neglects them. (Or removes the folks from the other categories) Mason (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge to :Category:German architects. The German Empire (1871-1918) was a German nation-state (unlike Holy Roman Empire), and its inhabitants can be primarily called Germans. No need to create occupational intersection categories with every regime change. Place Clichy (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:German architects. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:German sculptors. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Sculptors from the German Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:German sculptors. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge to :Category:German sculptors. The German Empire (1871-1918) was a German nation-state (unlike Holy Roman Empire), and its inhabitants can be primarily called Germans. No need to create occupational intersection categories with every regime change. Place Clichy (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:German sculptors. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:German astronomers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Astronomers from the German Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:German astronomers. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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::Oppose: the German Empire included, at least for a while, parts of what is now Poland and France, and had many citizens who did not consider themselves German: this sort of hedge is potentially useful for people whose self-identification is no longer possible to recover (not German/German Empire, but Nicolaus Copernicus is the crowning example). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

::* The German Empire did not exist yet when Copernicus lived, so this is a poor reason to oppose. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:German astronomers. The German Empire (1871-1918) was a German nation-state (unlike Holy Roman Empire), and its inhabitants can be primarily called Germans. No need to create occupational intersection categories with every regime change. Place Clichy (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:German astronomers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Redirects from UK postcode districts to :Category:Redirects from UK postcodes

:Nominator's rationale: Match the naming style of the parent category ({{cat|Redirects from postal codes}}), and that of the rcat template ({{t|R from UK postcode}}), neither of which add the word district. ^user:A smart kitten_meow 10:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• M50 2EQ is a postcode whereas M50 is a postcode district. [https://www.map-logic.co.uk/blogs/articles/16108237-what-are-postcode-areas-districts-and-sectors] MRSC (talk) 11:18, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• :@MRSC: That’s fair enough - I don’t think I gave enough explanation in my nomination, so sorry about that. What prompted me to make this nomination is because of (e.g.) the unique non-geographic full postcodes listed at List of postcode areas in the United Kingdom#Non-geographic postcodes, which could plausibly be turned into redirects and be tagged with {{t|R from UK postcode}}, but wouldn’t fit in the corresponding category {{cat|Redirects from UK postcode districts}}. Best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 14:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment As MRSC says, the contents are postcode districts, not postcodes. And unless I am mistaken the main article is List of postcode districts in the United Kingdom. However, I shall do no more than comment because I find CfD arbitrary and a arbitrary !vote by me would not be helpful. Thincat (talk) 11:56, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

:: ... and it may be worth noting :Category:Postcode areas of the United Kingdom Thincat (talk) 12:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Keep. Yes, it's a question of word usage because a lot of people do say postcode when they mean only the district. I agree with Thincat that the terms are area (XX), district (XX99) and code (XX99 9ZZ). I'm suggesting a keep because we should really comply with terms that are strictly correct but I can well understand confusion arising: my postcode bears no relation at all to where I actually live (wrong postal town and wrong county)! PearlyGigs (talk) 14:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|PSOTY}}

:Nominator's rationale: Previously deleted per CfD on 9JUN2023, but the only difference I notice from before is one additional album and a few more categorized redirects. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 09:40, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Priests in South Africa to :Category:South African priests

:Nominator's rationale: Category is more useful as a nationality category Mason (talk) 04:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename, seems an uncontroversial WP:C2C move. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Immigrants to the United Kingdom. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Emigrants from British Overseas Territories to the United Kingdom to :Category:Emigrants from British Overseas Territories

:Nominator's rationale: I think that we should either delete this category OR convert it into the parent category Mason (talk) 02:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:Immigrants to the United Kingdom, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:47, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• :Support. Equally good solution as far as I'm concerned :) Mason (talk) 04:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge the two sub-categories into :Category:Immigrants to the United Kingdom, especially as they use the same naming convention as existing members. PearlyGigs (talk) 14:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Bhutanese musicians by instrument to :Category:Bhutanese musicians

:Nominator's rationale: only one category that could easily be in the main category Mason (talk) 02:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

:*Found several more instruments that are solo instruments

::* Propose merging :Category:Botswana musicians by instrument to :Category:Botswana musicians

::* Propose merging :Category:Seychellois musicians by instrument to :Category:Seychellois musicians

::* Propose merging :Category:Kyrgyzstani musicians by instrument to :Category:Kyrgyzstani musicians

::* Propose merging :Category:Tibetan musicians by instrument to :Category:Tibetan musicians

::* Propose merging :Category:Yemeni musicians by instrument to :Category:Yemeni musicians

::Nominator's rationale: Found another fairly empty by "instrument" Mason (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge is a good path forward. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 05:06, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Romans who received the grass crown to :Category:Ancient Romans who received the grass crown

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman victims of crime to :Category:Ancient Roman victims of crime

::* Propose renaming :Category:Deified Roman people to :Category:Deified ancient Roman people

::* Propose renaming :Category:Deified Roman women to :Category:Deified ancient Roman women

::* Propose renaming :Category:Deified Roman men to :Category:Deified ancient Roman men

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman prisoners of war to :Category:Ancient Roman prisoners of war

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman triumphators to :Category:Ancient Roman triumphators

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman philhellenes to :Category:Ancient Roman philhellenes

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman prisoners and detainees to :Category:Ancient Roman prisoners and detainees

::* Propose renaming :Category:Murdered Roman empresses to :Category:Murdered ancient Roman empresses

::* Propose renaming :Category:Lovers of Roman royalty to :Category:Lovers of ancient Roman royalty

::* Propose renaming :Category:Mistresses of Roman royalty to :Category:Mistresses of ancient Roman royalty

::* Propose renaming :Category:Murdered Roman women to :Category:Murdered ancient Roman women

:Nominator's rationale: Consistency with the parent category (Ancient Romans) and making it clearer when the context is Mason (talk) 00:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

:* Additional noms from 20:01, 27 September 2023

::* Propose renaming :Category:Lists of Roman people to :Category:Lists of ancient Roman people

::* Propose renaming :Category:Lists of Roman women to :Category:Lists of ancient Roman women

::* Propose renaming :Category:Roman patricians to :Category:Ancient Roman patricians

::* Propose renaming :Category:Lists of equites to :Category:Lists of ancient Roman equites

::* Propose renaming :Category:Romans from unknown gentes to :Category:Ancient Romans from unknown gentes

::Nominator's rationale: Same reasoning of consistency/clarity Mason (talk) 20:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:50, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Rename all as outlined because the context is important. At first glance, :Category:Roman prisoners of war could easily mean Italian soldiers in World War II who came from Rome. PearlyGigs (talk) 13:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom (and as creator of one of them). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• :Great. I'll try to dig around to see if there are any I missed. Mason (talk) 20:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I note that the word "Romans" nearly always means "ancient Romans"; while technically it could be used for inhabitants of medieval or modern Rome, there can't be that many uses of the term in English compared with examples of Romans from antiquity. And most of these categories consist entirely of ancient Romans, some of them because the concepts they relate to belong exclusively to ancient Rome (for example, no Romans were deified after the fourth century; there were no Roman gentes or equites or patricians [except in a very limited sense, not the classical one] post-Roman Empire). So in many cases, "ancient" is redundant and a little bit ridiculous. Doing a silly thing just to keep everything consistent, even when there's no risk of confusion, seems like a poor rationale. P Aculeius (talk) 07:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Unnecessary Per P Aculeius. Adding "ancient" in these cases is redundant. In every case it is clear that "Roman" means "ancient Romans"; I can't believe anyone would confuse "Roman prisoners of war" with Italian POWs of any war from Rome, & that would not be a notable category. Further, in some cases adding "ancient" would actually lead to some confusion, for example would some think "ancient Roman patricians" excludes Roman Patricians who flourished during the Empire? Hypercorrectness would engender this kind of confusion. -- llywrch (talk) 20:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

:* There are some categories for which it is obvious that it is about ancient Romans, and some other categories for which it is not obvious at all, e.g. :Category:Lists of Roman people. Surely the latter type of categories should be renamed, but for consistency I still prefer all of them to be renamed. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename All Don't disagree that the additional word is needed on some but not all of the individual categories. But consistency here will help with both reader navigation and keeping it simple for category creators. - RevelationDirect (talk) 10:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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