Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 7#Category:National League

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: listify then delete. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:Convert :Category:List of place names of Choctaw origin in the United States to article List of place names of Choctaw origin, or List of Choctaw-language place names

:Nominator's rationale: A list would be more instructive, showing the meaning and providing citations. Compare :List of Chinook Jargon place names. If not, then rename to :Category:Choctaw place names, compare :Category:Chinook Jargon place names. – Fayenatic London 16:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

::Rename and listify per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:20, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Actually I suggested two options of renaming or listifying, but of course we could indeed do both. – Fayenatic London 08:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

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Relisting comment: Do both?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 23:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Delete/Listify Seems akin to WP:SHAREDNAME since it's grouping by type of name rather than anything defining. Places that are defined by the Choctaw people, like the Apukshunnubbee District, will still be under other subcategories of the :Category:Choctaw tree. We've previously deleted similar categories for place name origins here and here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• Delete/Listify per nom and RevelationDirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|2024 superhero films}}

:Nominator's rationale: There are no similar categories for other years and superhero films are covered by a variety of other categories that make ones like this unnecessary. -- ZooBlazer 22:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

::Keep Nominator has not demonstrated that we shouldn't have this category. Most other genres are subdivided to the year level, and the decade-level categories are large enough to support this. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

:Keep There is no reason that we should not have superhero-films by year categories. Dimadick (talk) 06:56, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment This category has been emptied. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
• :Now I have put 19 items here. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Broken Sword games to :Category:Broken Sword

:Nominator's rationale: Same logic with Monkey Island. The parent category currently contains only 2 articles. And if we merge, we'll get a total of just 9 articles. It makes navigation easier, but we also have to move all of this category's subcategories manually, because the bot doesn't do that. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. GLTPRE (talk) 05:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, this merge would remove the content from the video games tree. It is rather :Category:Broken Sword that should be nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• :what do you mean by "remove the content from the Video games tree" QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Period, valid subcategorization scheme. Simple size is no longer an argument due to the deprecation of SMALLCAT, one has to prove that the parent is well and truly unnecessary and there is an article there that isn't about one of the games. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• :Comment I can't really understand what you mean, but I think you're saying when I make these kinds nominations I apparently have to do it the other way around. I guess. There are only nine articles overall anyway, so do you still want a merge to be done? QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

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• Nominating :Category:Broken Sword is a better idea to move forward. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Annette Ducharme albums}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category with only redirects to the same article isn't particularly useful for readers. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 21:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• Delete. This would be fine if any of the albums actually had their own standalone articles — which is unlikely, since Annette Ducharme ended up achieving her permanent notability as a songwriter for other people rather than as a recording artist in her own right — but is not needed just to hold a bunch of redirects back to her BLP. Bearcat (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Armenian male writers by century to :Category:Armenian male writers

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's no need to have a category for one (or even two )centuries. It doesn't help navigation Mason (talk) 20:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• merge per nom ... sawyer * he/they * talk 07:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Sorry for my ignorance and all the inconvenience I've caused. Thedarkknightli (talk) 14:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Governors of Alabama Territory to :Category:Territorial governors of the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. This category only has (and can ever have) one person it it. Per Alabama Territory "William Wyatt Bibb (1781–1820) of Georgia was the only territorial governor, later elected to that position after statehood." Accordingly, this category is unhelpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 20:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Professional Wrestlers from Portland, Oregon to :Category:Professional wrestlers from Portland, Oregon

:Nominator's rationale: Caps per MoS --Another Believer _(Talk) 19:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Rename per nom, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Blue and Gold Honor Societies}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category for university and college honor societies on a non-defining characteristic. Honor societies are not defined by their colors. Naraht (talk) 18:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: manual merge. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Critics employed by The New York Times to :Category:The New York Times journalists and :Category:American critics

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge with :Category:The New York Times journalists and manually merge to appropriate categories in :Category:American critics. No other category speicifically for "Critics by newspaper". Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:The New York Times journalists and manually merge to :Category:American critics per nom. It looks like the latter manual merge is largely redundant, the articles are mostly already in subcategories, but perhaps a few articles will be caught nevertheless. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. This is looking like it's going to need a broader discussion on men/women/male/female. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:LGBT men artists to :Category:LGBT male artists

:Nominator's rationale: Moving to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:LGBT_men_artists full. Norm is "Male artists". For the record, the speedy rename was supported by the category creator. {{ping|MikutoH|Marcocapelle}} discussants. Mason (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per LGBT men, Transgender men and their eponymous categories. Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly awkward. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• :{{ping|Marcocapelle}} then all these categories need renaming. --MikutoH ^talk! 22:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• :I don't understand how this is awkward. @Marcocapelle Trans men who do art are male artists. Mason (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :* {{ping|Smasongarrison}} the terms female and male are often associated with sex assigned at birth. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::{{ping|Marcocapelle}} I asked an expert and that is a myth. Polygnotus (talk) 06:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::* This is not about facts (so it can't be a myth), this is just how language is being used. For example [https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/3/e2022056567/188709/Sex-Assigned-at-Birth-Ratio-Among-Transgender-and]. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::::{{ping|Marcocapelle}} The expert said that {{tq|Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly awkward.}} is a {{tq|lexicological myth}}. I am not sure why you linked to that webpage. The expert also said: {{tq|"Male" and "female" can refer to gender, "man" and "woman" to sex}}. Trans men who do art are male artists. Polygnotus (talk) 11:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::::* I linked to the web page exactly because it discusses "male assigned at birth" and "female assigned at birth" in transgender context. Besides, asking an expert is WP:OR and unverifiable. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::::::{{ping|Marcocapelle}} Can you quote which part(s) of that webpage you think support your claim that {{tq|Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly awkward}}? What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence (and certainly after consulting an expert). Polygnotus (talk) 13:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• :::::::* Ok, "awkward" may not have been the right word. "Confusing" or "ambiguous" suits better. Information presented at Wikipedia should not be ambiguous, that is my point. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::{{ping|Marcocapelle}} Do you have any sources for the claim that calling transgender men "male" could be slightly confusing or ambiguous? And can you please doublecheck that with a person or source you trust because I believe that is incorrect. Polygnotus (talk) 13:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::* I have already said that the terms female and male are often associated with sex assigned at birth and given a source for that. And no, I am not going to come up with unverifiable information like you do, that is entirely against the spirit of Wikipedia. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::{{ping|Marcocapelle}} So, in summary: you wrote something that isn't true ({{tq|Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly awkward}}), I tried to help you by pointing it out, then you changed it to two other claims that are also not true ("Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly confusing" and "Calling transgender men "male" could be slightly ambiguous") and now you made a new claim ({{tq|I have already said that the terms female and male are often associated with sex assigned at birth and given a source for that.}}) that also isn't true (that source does not support that claim). You are perhaps misremembering the part where it says: {{tq|Youth reported their sex assigned at birth by answering: “What is your sex?” Response options were female or male. Although this question does not refer to sex assigned at birth specifically, several studies have found that TGD youth are likely to understand “sex” to be sex assigned at birth rather than gender identity}} (the source says that the word "sex" is understood to mean sex assigned at birth rather than gender identity, not that the words "male" and "female" are associated with sex assigned at birth). I have asked you to provide a source for your claims that calling transgender men "male" could be slightly confusing or ambiguous and in response you wrote: {{tq|I am not going to come up with unverifiable information like you do}}. That does not make sense. Polygnotus (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::* You did not try to help at all. It has meanwhile become obvious that you are just trying to derail the discussion. I will not further react. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support to cancel out Marcocapelle's !vote based on incorrect reasoning. Trans men who do art are male artists. Polygnotus (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• Why :Category:Male artists and :Category:Women artists but not :Category:Men artists or :Category:Female artists? Is it because of grammar or something else? --MikutoH ^talk! 23:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• :@MikutoH are you going to make vote? You're allowed as the category creator. Mason (talk) 02:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

:::{{ping|MikutoH}} did vote but on the talkpage, not here. I have left a message on their talkpage asking them to vote here. Polygnotus (talk) 17:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

::::I changed my mind and I'm neutral now. No one answered me: is the adjective women grammatical? Two editors said male exclude trans men. So what's the best?

::::It looks like more an undebated Wikipedia convention. --MikutoH ^talk! 22:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::The use of Women has been discussed in several other places. My goal is consistency within the Male artist category tree. I'd be fine moving to Men artists if all the other categories were also moved there. Mason (talk) 20:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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• Support: I've always found it silly when Wikipedia has categories for men and women instead of males and females, simply because children cannot accurately be described as men or women, and leaving out young people from the categories would not be helpful. Mclay1 (talk) 14:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

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::Oppose per Marco and also because it would not be in sync with :Category:LGBT women artists. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Well, what do you suggest we do for the entire Male artists tree? Mason (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Western European countries}}

:Nominator's rationale: Previously deleted after discussion as seen [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_7#Category:Northwestern_European_countries here] Moxy🍁 19:49, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. It is not clear at all where western Europe begins or ends. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: Very common and accepted classification of countries. The obvious way to avoid debate over which countries are contained is to use the largest reliably sourced definition and clarify it refers to geography and not political alignment. Mclay1 (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

:* A very nice illustration that this is very fuzzy is Wikipedia itself (although not a reliable source) that says that Germany is in central Europe rather than western Europe, and the Netherlands in northwestern Europe rather than in western Europe. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

:*:Northwestern Europe could be considered the northern half of Western Europe. As for countries in Central Europe or any other subdivision, there's no reason they can't be categorised in more than one region if there are sources to support it. The articles for the countries and/or regions will almost definitely discuss it. It just doesn't seem like an issue to me. Mclay1 (talk) 14:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

:*::Delete per nom. Which countries belong in Western Europe? The definition is extremely fuzzy. Mason (talk) 20:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

:*:::Every country that reliable sources say belongs. I really don't understand why people have an issue with this. It's not the only category in the world that has debatable boundaries. Even Europe sometimes does or doesn't include countries like Cyprus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc. By your logic, we should also delete :Category:Countries in Europe. Just like that category uses the largest accepted definition (with some border countries in multiple categories), we just need to pick a definition for this one and use it. Mclay1 (talk) 06:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

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• Delete per nom. Too vague for the category structure, and previously deleted. Walsh90210 (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per previous discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: split as unopposed. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 03:58, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:History of Northern Nigeria to :Category:Northern Nigeria Protectorate and :Category:Northern Region, Nigeria

:Nominator's rationale: split, this is a rather odd category because we have neither an article Northern Nigeria nor a :Category:Northern Nigeria. We do have articles Northern Nigeria Protectorate and Northern Region, Nigeria so the proposal is to split the category in the same manner as the articles. Everything that fits neither can be dispersed to the tree of :Category:History of Nigeria as appropriate. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge as unopposed (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (talk) 04:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Professional wrestling in Richfield Township, Summit County, Ohio to :Category:Professional wrestling shows in Ohio and :Category:Richfield Township, Summit County, Ohio

:Nominator's rationale: Only 3 articles, does not aid navigation. User:Namiba 15:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge & rename back. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from the Thirteen Colonies to :Category:American colonial writers

:* Propose merging :Category:Printers from the Thirteen Colonies to :Category:Colonial American printers

:* Propose merging :Category:Merchants from the Thirteen Colonies to :Category:Colonial American merchants

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping categories. In each case, the merge target is much much older. A category rename or a cfd would have been a better approach than creating duplicate categories. Mason (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, but immediately rename the targets back to Thirteen Colonies, per :Category:People of the Thirteen Colonies. Otherwise people from New Spain or New France might be added to the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
• :I'm fine with merge and rename as long as in the end, we have a redirect pointing from Category:Colonial American FOO to Category:FOO from the Thirteen Colonies. That'll ensure that the category header templates can figure out what's happened and keep Category:17th-century American merchants as a child of Category:Merchants from the Thirteen Colonies. Mason (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

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::Merge per above discussion. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Merge. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename (non-admin closure). Queen of Hearts (talk) 04:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:National League to :Category:National League (baseball)

:Nominator's rationale: To match the disambiguation on the article National League (baseball). Walsh90210 (talk) 03:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

::Lean support. This could have been speedied. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

::: I wasn't sure if somebody would disagree with the original move; I also wasn't sure if some of the subcategories should be moved. :Category:National League stolen base champions‎ seems clearly baseball-specific, :Category:National League champion seasons‎ might also need to be moved (although there isn't a corresponding category for 2013–14 Luton Town F.C. season etc.). Walsh90210 (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

::::@Walsh90210, fair point. As for the rest, if this Cfd goes through, I'll check in with WP:Baseball and, if needed, speedy the approrpriate ones. That said, I don't think that would be necessary since they are all baseball-specific, even the "champion seasons" one. The championship system - for lack of a better term - is different for English football and baseball so there won't be confusion. The main category definitely needs to be changed though. Omnis Scientia (talk) 00:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy move per C2D. At least a couple of the subcats will also need speedying. Note that all subcats of :Category:National League (English football) are disambiguated. Mclay1 (talk) 06:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

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