Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 29

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge/delete as nominated. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{clc|Category:Professional Women's Hockey League lists by team}}

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:Boston Fleet lists}} to :Category:Boston Fleet and :Category:Massachusetts sports-related lists

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:Minnesota Frost lists}} to :Category:Minnesota Frost and :Category:Minnesota sports-related lists

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:Montreal Victoire lists}} to :Category:Montreal Victoire and :Category:Quebec sport-related lists

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:New York Sirens lists}} to :Category:New York Sirens and :Category:New York (state) sports-related lists

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:Ottawa Charge lists}} to :Category:Ottawa Charge, :Category:Ontario sport-related lists, and :Category:Ottawa-related lists

:* Propose merging {{clc|Category:Toronto Sceptres lists}} to :Category:Toronto Sceptres, :Category:Ontario sport-related lists, and :Category:Toronto-related lists

:Nominator's rationale: As a relatively new league, "by team" list categories are not yet useful. Merge/delete per WP:NARROW with no objection to recreation in a few years when teams have many lists each. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete/merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:09, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|World War II military aircraft}}

{{collapse top|1=Extended list of categories nominated}}

• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II heavy bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II dive bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II light bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II medium bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II torpedo bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II experimental aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II night fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II ground attack aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II patrol aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II reconnaissance aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II trainer aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II transport aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II utility aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II military aircraft by country}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Bulgarian aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Bulgarian bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Bulgarian light bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Bulgarian reconnaissance aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Chinese aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Chinese fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II ground attack aircraft of China}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II aircraft of Finland}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II French aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II French fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II bombers of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II heavy bombers of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II light bombers of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II medium bombers of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II torpedo bombers of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II experimental aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II fighter aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II night fighter aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II ground attack aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II helicopters of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II patrol aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|Proposed World War II military aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II reconnaissance aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II trainer aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II transport aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II utility aircraft of Germany}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Hungarian aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian experimental aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian ground attack aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Italian transport aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese dive bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese heavy bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese medium bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese torpedo bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese ground attack aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese patrol aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese reconnaissance aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese trainer aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Japanese transport aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Polish aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Polish bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Polish light bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Polish medium bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Polish fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Romanian aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Romanian ground attack aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Romanian fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet heavy bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet medium bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet ground attack aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet transport aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II Soviet reconnaissance aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II aircraft of Switzerland}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II aircraft of the United Kingdom}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British torpedo bombers}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British night fighter aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British patrol aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British trainer aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British transport aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II British utility aircraft}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II bombers of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II dive bombers of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II torpedo bombers of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II fighter aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II night fighter aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II ground attack aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II patrol aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II reconnaissance aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II trainer aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II transport aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|World War II utility aircraft of the United States}}
• Propose deleting {{lc|Military aircraft by war}} (by default, if the rest pass, as this will then be empty)

{{collapse bottom}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per the results of the prior CfD for WW1, which (although not participated in much) closed in delete, and for much the same reason: we generally don't categorize military equipment by war, because it's the sort of "performers by performance" categorization that is discouraged. While in this case, yes, it could be argued that for many types here WW2 service is somewhat defining, when you get down to the nitty-gritty it becomes less clear. Is the Avro Anson, for instance, defined by its World War 2 service in the Finnish Air Force? It doesn't seem likely. Categorizing only by manufacturing nation's service both eliminates some types' actual service (the Martin Maryland, for instance, is a U.S. type but was exclusively operated by the RAF) and is redundant to the "1930s/1940s military aircraft of Foo" tree, while opening the floodgates to everyone would result in some very long category sections for some aircraft. Overall this is a good example of why we don't categorise "Item by Service in X" - and it's broadly incomplete and has been for over 20 years, as well as being scattershot in its naming format to boot, so proposing deletion. Note that :Category:World War II jet aircraft is excluded as a small, actually defining-due-to-newness categorization. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure WP:PERFCAT applies, mostly b/c wars are significant inter/national events that don't happen at the same frequency as performances, and it should be up to WT:MILHIST to decide (and to subsequently make explicit in WP:PERFCAT). Speaking of which, why wasn't WT:MILHIST notified of either CfD? These CfDs have large implications, and the WW1 one shouldn't have been closed without more discussion, or at the very least WP:SILENT consensus after a WikiProject notification. Ping to closer {{U|Bunnypranav}}.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  11:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• I did wonder about that - notifying that one slipped my mind, I'll admit. This one I was going to but had incoming storms just when I was posting this, I'll do so now. And as mentioned, it's not explicitly PERFCAT, but a similar principle that I've observed applied broadly at CfD - which makes sense in this case, given the reasons I mentioned as to why this is, functionally, either redundant or unworkable. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• :Have posted a reply to the notice Bushranger put up at MILHIST regarding the previous CfD closure. Didn't immediately realize that it might have been necessary. Thanks for the ping! ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 14:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete in the spirit of WP:PERFCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• {{strikethrough|Keep}} Delete {{strikethrough|While the category does contain tons of overlap, I believe it should be kept because it is a notable enough factor in an aircraft. Service during wartime affects the development, design choices/role, and production of an aircraft. I think one major concern with the category is the fact that it's poorly defined in terms of what qualifies as a "WW2 military aircraft" such as what countries it entered service in and the role it served in those countries. I think the category would be greatly improved by working with WP:MILHIST to create standard criteria for what can be included. In general I think more time should be spent trying to fix the category first instead of deleting it.}} Delete as the role of displaying aircraft by country is better served by list articles.
• :The problem is, as I noted, that...how do you define it? By country of origin? Martin Maryland and Brewster Buffalo immediately come to mind as types that were much more notable (in the Maryland's case, entirely more notable) for wartime service with a country that didn't build them. By country of use? That will lead to 30-category pileups at the bottom of some articles, unless you only categorise some, and how do you choose which users to categorise as in that case? (I'm pretty sure that would be in violation of WP:ARBITRARYCAT, too). This is something better off done as lists - and behold the contents of :Category:Lists of World War II aircraft. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• ::Ah, I didn't consider list articles. Now that you've explained it, I do believe lists are a better way of displaying aircraft by country than categories. Tylermack999 (talk) 04:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Comment - I think there's something worth saving here, but I think the problem is that they are being split by intended task (bomber, recon, etc.), which I think we all likely agree is a form of Overcat. I think these should simply be split by country ("...of use" - these don't seem to be "manufactured in" cats), and then diffuse/subcat by Military branch. (For example, in List of aircraft of the United States during World War II, these aircraft are split by military branch.) - jc37 22:48, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• :In many cases doing it "by country" would result in truly massive categories, and I'm pretty sure we don't categorise weapons by user. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:31, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• ::If split by military branch, I'm not sure that they would be that big. And please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that, in most cases, these are proprietary aircraft to each country, with distinctive design/look/outline/etc. Which feature throughout the mass media of the time (including various art forms), so these are a bit more than merely weapons. I'm normally a proponent of lists for certain things, especially when members need clarifying explanation of membership, but I don't think that applies in this case. - jc37 23:42, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• :::I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about "proprietary aircraft to each country". Note that military aircraft as a whole (not just WW2 types) are categorized in :Category:Military aircraft by country already. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• ::::That the aircraft for each country was distinctive and specifically made to be so. Presumably with the goal that one might not shoot down same-side aircraft.
• ::::All that said, looking at your link, I see: :Category:1940s United States military aircraft and :Category:1940s German military aircraft (etc), having a lot of subcats similar to those nominated. I think the WWII cats could easily fit as subcats of these. That said, I would not strongly oppose a merge to this tree. It's basically just a switch from categorizing by "era" to by "decade". - jc37 00:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• :::::There's no need to merge, actually - all the aircraft here (and a lot more WW2 types alongside them - as I mentioned the nominated tree is very, very incomplete) are already in those categories. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|¡Uno! ¡Dos! ¡Tré!}}

:Nominator's rationale: There is no scheme to categorize songs from a series of albums by that series. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 22:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

:*Split to :Category:¡Uno!, :Category:¡Dos!, and :Category:¡Tré!. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 15:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

:::I know there's :Category:American Idiot but that's because there are more related articles beyond the songs from the album itself. Is there a need to begin having categories for songs by album? Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 19:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Split or delete?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 08:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete, we have :Category:Green Day songs for these songs. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. We should not have categories that contain both songs and albums by an artist. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per above --Lenticel ^(talk) 12:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Orthwein business family to :Category:Orthwein family

:Nominator's rationale: Everybody with the name Orthwein on Wikipedia is in this category and listed on Orthwein, so a disambiguator seems unneeded. Mike Selinker (talk) 02:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Sausmarez family (Guernsey) to :Category:Saumarez family

:Nominator's rationale: Everybody named Sausmarez or Saumarez with a Wikipedia article is in this category (and in Saumarez), so I don't think we need a disambiguator. I think we should look to Saumarez and make this match the article title, even though there are two ways to spell the name. Mike Selinker (talk) 02:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Dimitry family. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Dimitry Family (Creoles) to :Category:Dimitry family

:Nominator's rationale: I don't see any other articles on people with the last name Dimitry (with a y) that aren't in this category, so I don't think the disambiguator is needed. Regardless of that, "family" should be decapitalized. Mike Selinker (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Certainly decapitalize "family". Marcocapelle (talk) 10:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Chavasse family (United Kingdom) to :Category:Chavasse family

:Nominator's rationale: Everybody with the surname Chavasse on Wikipedia is in this category and listed on Chavasse family. No need for a disambiguator. Mike Selinker (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.