Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 30

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Labor disputes in Botswana}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only article in this category is University of Botswana Non-Academic Staff Union, which is already appropriately categorised, not a specific dispute. AusLondonder (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Mainichi Broadcasting System to :Category:MBS Media Holdings

:Nominator's rationale: Current name of holding company. VenezuelanSpongeBobFan2004 (talk) 19:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Airliner bombings. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Airliner bombings in the Soviet Union}}

:Nominator's rationale: Violates WP:OCLOCATION and WP:NARROWCAT; the absolute number of airliner bombings is too small to warrant subdividing, it's unlikely to grow substantially in the future, and the country where a bombing took place is not a central defining characteristic. OCLOCATION dictates that countries of occurrence may be useful for dividing up huge and unwieldy categories, but this isn't one of them. Additionally, this subcategory will forever remain extremely narrow because the subject country no longer exists. Carguychris (talk) 18:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Presumably this is meant to merge :Category:Airliner bombings in the Soviet Union to :Category:Airliner bombings rather than delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• :Yes, my bad. Carguychris (talk) 21:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Merge for now, with the very uneven distribution between countries, a diffusion by country currently does not make too much sense. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by instrument failure to :Category:Aviation accidents and incidents involving flight instrument failure

:Nominator's rationale: (1) It's important to specify the type of instrument under discussion. (2) Flight instrument (or navigation system) failure is almost never cited as the solitary cause of a notable aviation accident or incident, making the current name a violation of WP:NARROWCAT or WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Almost all complex modern civil and military aircraft have multiple redundant systems, and the vast majority of "instrument failure" accidents involve the pilot(s) becoming fixated on a single malfunctioning instrument or system while ignoring other, properly functioning instruments or systems that, if used properly, could have prevented the accident. Investigators typically cite pilot error as the primary cause in such accidents; flight instrument failure is usually secondary. Carguychris (talk) 17:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Lists of Major League Baseball stolen base leaders to :Category:Major League Baseball lists

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge to parent category. Only three articles. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support merge per nom. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Labor disputes in Samoa}}

:Nominator's rationale: The only article in this category is Samoa Public Service Association, not a specific dispute. AusLondonder (talk) 06:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

::Delete per nom. Mason (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Labor disputes in Taiwan}}

:Nominator's rationale: The only article in this category is about the Labour movement in general and not a specific dispute and which is already appropriately categorised. AusLondonder (talk) 06:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

::Delete per nom. Mason (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Labor disputes in Luxembourg}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only article in this category is about a trade union not a specific dispute and which is already appropriately categorised. AusLondonder (talk) 06:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• :Delete per nom. Mason (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Labor disputes in Vatican City}}

:Nominator's rationale: Only article in this category is Association of Vatican Lay Workers, which is about a trade union not a specific dispute and which is already appropriately categorised. AusLondonder (talk) 05:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• :Delete per nom. Thanks @AusLondonder for digging through these! Mason (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge :Category:Jewish American legal scholars to :Category:Jewish American academics and :Category:Jewish legal scholars, and keep the latter. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:43, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Jewish American legal scholars to :Category:Jewish American academics

:* Propose merging :Category:Jewish legal scholars to :Category:Jewish scholars

:Nominator's rationale: We really don't need to intersection ethnicity/religion with area of scholarship. The category creator needs to review WP:EGRS.Mason (talk) 03:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• Merge, trivial intersection. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Oy veh. All I can say is, "trivial intersection" my tuchus. Please excuse my French, I mean Yiddish. ;)
• :Seriously, though - are you guys totally unaware that Jewish legal scholarship stretches back centuries? (Actually, millenia.) It is deeply embedded in Jewish culture, outlook and ethos - and intertwined with Western legal history. So it's not in the least surprising that there are so many Jewish people among the ranks of :Category:American legal scholars - and that so many of the most well-known and widely cited American legal scholars are Jewish.
• :Here is a small selection of the "google blurbs" that turned up when I googled "Jewish legal scholars history", which should give you a sense of what I'm alluding to:
• Jewish Law and American Law, Volume 2 - Academic Studies Press
• :Through careful comparative analysis, the essays also turn to Jewish law to provide insights into substantive and conceptual areas of the American legal system, ...
• The Hebrews and the Foundation of Western Law
• :Starting as early as the second century A.D., Jewish scholars attempted to compile a code of laws from the Torah and other sources, which would assemble all ...
• The Hidden Influence of Jewish Law on the Common Law Tradition
• :As Christian scholars sought contacts with Jewish intellectuals in order to...
• Jewish Law: A Very Brief Account - David D. Friedman
• :Jewish law may be the best recorded legal system in the history of the world; there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of pages of surviving ...
• Oxford University Press - An Introduction to the History and Sources of Jewish Law
• :Jewish law has a history stretching from the early period to the modern State of Israel, encompassing: the Talmud, Geonic, and later codifications. // :Instead, the work would take a broader view and include material from the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hellenistic Egypt, Roman law, the Samaritans and the Karaites
• Jewish Law Research Guide | University of Miami School of Law
• :The Post-Talmudic legal scholars are separated into three historical sub-periods: geonim (700-1050), reshonim (1050-1599), and aharonim (1600-today).
• :In closing, I've now added 15 more articles to this category, and there are scores more that can be added. Which reminds me: I also created :Category:African-American legal scholars a few years back, which now has 42 articles. Like their Jewish counterparts, they bring their own outlook and ethos with them when they engage in legal scholarship. And lastly, I just created the "missing" parent cat, :Category:Jewish legal scholars. There are scores of articles about non-American Jewish legal scholars waiting to be added. Anomalous+0 (talk) 11:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• :: Request:Please review Wikipedia:Categorizing articles about people. It will help you make more effective arguments. Also please don't create categories mid-cfd. I've adding the newly created category to the nomination. AND, please don't conflate Israeli legal scholars with Jewish legal scholars. I am aware of the intersection, but I do not think it counts at the intersetion of nationality+those things. {{ping|Anomalous+0|Marcocapelle}} per updated nom. Mason (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• :::Merge per nom. I also agree with the Israeli/Jewish conflation. Being Israeli doesn't mean a person is Jewish and vice versa. We should avoid that. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• :::@Smasongarrison, I just noticed that you're merging :Category:Jewish legal scholars into itself. May need to fix that! Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• ::::oops! Should be to the parent categoryMason (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Merge The "American" aspect makes this a trivial intersection. (t · c) buidhe 21:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oh dear. I damn sure messed up when I inadvertently added added "Israeli legal scholars" as a subcat - instead of making it a See also link, as I intended - which is how I have >always< handled that sort of thing over the years. I was totally wiped out when I made those edits - I bungled it twice, actually, and I'm still shaking my head about it! In any event, I have rectified the mistake.

:Back to the issue at hand: Why have you all completely ignored the argument I presented showing the very clear pertinence of Jewish legal scholarship? Not a single editor has responded in any way to the case I've made. Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

::Hi. The criterion in WP:EGRS is: "combination is itself recognized as a defining topic that has already been established (in reliable sources showing substantial existing research specific to the topic." The sources you cite above are about Jewish law, which is certainly a significant topic, but not legal scholars who happen to be American Jews. Btw, some of your sources could be used to create a section in the Jewish law article about its influence in Western law, if not an article itself. Kol tuv, ProfGray (talk) 15:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

:::P.S. For what it's worth, there are reliable sources that recognize "Jewish lawyers" (or legal scholars) as a defining topic. I don't know why there's no category, maybe it's been proposed and deleted in the past. Sources include:

:::* Hornblass, Jerome. "The Jewish Lawyer." Cardozo L. Rev. 14 (1992): 1639.

:::* Auerbach, Jerold S. "From Rags to Robes: The Legal Profession, Social Mobility and the American Jewish Experience." American Jewish Historical Quarterly 66, no. 2 (1976): 249-284.

:::* Rabbis and Lawyers: The Journey from Torah to Constitution [book], Jerold S. Auerbach

:::* Auerbach, Jerold S. "Prophets or Profits? Liberal Lawyers and Jewish Tradition." Judaism 36, no. 3 (1987): 360.

:::* Simone Ladwig-Winters, (2018) Lawyers Without Rights: The Fate of Jewish Lawyers in Berlin After 1933

:::* Fagen, Melvin M. "The Status of Jewish Lawyers in New York City: A Preliminary Report on a Study Made by the Conference on Jewish Relations." Jewish Social Studies (1939): 73-104.

:::* Wald, Eli. "Jewish Lawyers and the US Legal Profession: The End of the Affair?." Touro L. Rev. 36 (2020): 299.

:::* Greisman, Israel M. "The Jewish Criminal Lawyer's Dilemma." Fordham Urb. LJ 29 (2001): 2413.

:::* Asimow, Michael. "Jewish Lawyers in American Popular Culture." Va. Sports & Ent. LJ 21 (2022): 1.

:::* Sarna, Jonathan D. "Two Jewish Lawyers Named Louis." American Jewish History 94, no. 1 (2008): 1-19.

:::* Meniconi, Antonella. "The expulsion of Jewish lawyers from the legal profession." Razza e: 99.

:::* Jarausch, Konrad H. "Jewish Lawyers in Germany, 1848–1938: the Disintegration of a Profession." The Leo Baeck Institute Yearbook 36, no. 1 (1991): 171-190.

:::* De Benedetti, Paola. "Jewish lawyers at the Court of Turin." Razza e: 153.

:::* Shamir, Ronen. "Nation-building and colonialism: The case of Jewish lawyers in Palestine." International Journal of the Legal Profession 8, no. 2 (2001): 109-123.

:::* Kuhne, Gunther. "The Impact of German Jewish Jurists on German Law until 1933 and Their Immigration Thereafter to the US, Israel, and Other Countries." Tel Aviv U. Stud. L. 15 (2000): 67.

:::However, rather than create a category, why not create an article with this material? Expand from these few sentences: History of the American legal profession#Jewish lawyers. Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 15:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

::::Thanks @ProfGray for breaking down the issue as well as wading through the wall of text! I think your suggestion to make a page is very constructive! @Anomalous+0 please keep your arguments more concise if you want editors to address them on the specifics. Mason (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Hi. @Mason, would it be reasonable to rename (Move) the :Category:Jewish American legal scholars to a new :Category:Jewish American lawyers, as a subset of :Category:American lawyers by ethnicity? As shown with source above, this combination is a defining topic, though it only has an article section and not a full article yet. (I'm not sure if there's enough for Jewish lawyers in general, though examples of De Benedetti, Meniconi, Shamir, Kuhne above would be relevant.)

:::::Btw, there's also List of Jewish American jurists. Does this article imply that there's a defining topic for a category by this name? Thanks, ProfGray (talk) 12:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::I'm not sure. I assume that there's previously been a Jewish lawyers category, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_3 I think that creating a page with more substance than just a list would be a better place to start. Mason (talk) 11:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Thoughts on ProfGray's rename suggestion?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Concur with Mason, :Category:Jewish American lawyers has presumably been deleted before, for the same reason as :Category:Jewish American legal scholars is nominated now: there is nothing specifically Jewish about American law. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Merge, or even better delete, as a trivial intersection and the precedent of the Jewish American lawyers category. The fact that Jewish law and the study of it are indeed a thing is completely irrelevant to the biographies of people who happen to be, at the same time, Jewish and American legal scholars. Not every secular Jewish lawyer is a talmudist. There may be room for a topic category on the studies of Jewish law though, but not a people category based on Jewishness of individuals rather than their topic of study. Guideline WP:COPSEP is relevant. Place Clichy (talk) 19:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• delete or merge unless the use of this is only for persons, who are explicitly discussed with respect to their scholarship RS as "Jewish American legal scholar". Not only should we not be getting into 'who is a Jew' in categories, this is not defining until RS define them as that. It is also trivial based on other arguments above. Is raised as a Jew that matters, only genetics, conversion, studied at Hebrew school or the Torah, does the person have to know they are a Jew, a Jew in the right way, 'immigration' 'naturalization', 'born citizen', say the right 'Jewish scholarly' things, say the wrong 'Jewish scholarly' things, etc, etc.? We recently had a BLP, who strongly objected to link to occupation in America, as a kind of pre-WWII Germany, 'list all the Jews in the learned professions' -- or 'you aren't evaluated as every other law scholar (as good as or as bad as), for you are Jewish'. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep It's a defining intersection with ample literature showing exactly that. I really wish that presumably non-Jewish editors would take a moment to think these things through. I'm getting flashbacks to when my article about kosher supermarkets was deleted by non-Jewish editors who proclaimed without evidence or common sense that "kosher" is a non-defining and trivial intersection with "supermarket". Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
• These are not similar. Kosher supermarkets is a case of applying Jewish law. American law is not a case of applying Jewish law. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
• Merge :Category:Jewish American legal scholars to :Category:Jewish American academics and :Category:Jewish legal scholars. Keep :Category:Jewish legal scholars. There is ample evidence above (see both ProfGray and Anomalous+0's sources) that this is a defining intersection. However, there is no evidence that being an American while also being a Jewish legal scholar is defining. Therefore, that one should be merged. Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 16:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: listify and then delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:Convert :Category:Things in the United States that were built by slaves to article Things in the United States that were built by slaves

:Nominator's rationale: Unforuntely, I don't think that this is defining because these "things" aren't regularlly defined as built by slaves Mason (talk) 00:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete, possibly listify per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• :If converted to a list, article should be named Structures in the United States built by slaves. "Things" is so vague. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Listify? If we are listifying, what should the list be called?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Reluctant delete/listify, the equivalents I'm familiar with would be "buildings in Germany that used to be concentration camps" or "structures in Europe built by Axis forced labor", both of which unfortunately are not defining due to the horrible scale of Nazi atrocities. (t · c) buidhe 21:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Lighthouse of Alexandria}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic of the articles in this category. It rather is a "what links here" collection. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose It covers the lighthouse's architect Sostratus of Cnidus, its destruction in the 1303 Crete earthquake, several attempts at duplication, and depictions in fiction. Dimadick (talk) 05:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

:* 1303 Crete earthquake is a good example, its epicenter wasn't in Egypt, it caused damage all over Crete and Egypt. Lighthouse of Alexandria really isn't a defining characteristic of this earthquake. This applies similarly to the other articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment A majority of the (now-13) articles should be removed, or moved to a new Cultural depictions of the Lighthouse of Alexandria if consensus for such a category exists. I'm not sure there will be more than 3 articles left when that is done. Walsh90210 (talk) 19:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Thoughts on the suggestion for a :Category:Cultural depictions of the Lighthouse of Alexandria? If that happens, should we also delete this category?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: See above relisting comment.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• A new cultural depictions category could be a (temporary?) solution, but e.g. Pharos (crater) does not belong there either, it is merely named after the island on which the lighthouse was located. If the new category is created the current category should certainly be deleted. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Delete for Now No conceptual objection to the category (I expected to iVote keep) but, after purging, we would be left with the main article plus Sostratus of Cnidus. The rest appears to be WP:OCASSOC and WP:PERFCAT. No objection to recreation later if content emerges and no objection to a cultural depictions category (so long as it specific depictions, not just overcategorizing everything about the 7 Wonders in general). - RevelationDirect (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Timex Datalink}}

:Nominator's rationale: There's only one page in here along with 8 images that are hosted on Wikimedia commons. Mason (talk) 02:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete in the spirit of WP:C2F. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Cercle Brugge templates to :Category:Cercle Brugge K.S.V. templates

:Nominator's rationale: match naming of parent category Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Rename, this could use have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom, and agree that WP:CFDS can be used for these kind of cases. GiantSnowman 19:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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