Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 July 8#Amy Bechtold
=[[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 July 8|8 July 2012]]=
class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 100%; text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" |
style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal; text-align:left;" |
|
---|
style="text-align:center;" | The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
:{{DRV links|The Ville}} For the first time, an article on a Zynga game was deleted before anyone had time to expand it. Georgia guy Georgia guy (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC) :Expired prods are almost always undeleted upon request (unless the article meets a speedy deletion criteria) so in the future it would be best to ask the person who deleted the article first since that is consider contesting it. To get back on track it should be restored due to the prod being contested unless there is serious problem with the article (ie a copyright violation). That said there is a good chance that if the article is restored that it will be brought up for deletion per WP:AFD so I suggest that you look for reliable sources to add to the article. Fortunately under normal circumstances AFD's last at least 7 days so there would be time to find and add sources to the article.--174.93.167.177 (talk) 02:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC) |
style="text-align:center;" | The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 100%; text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" |
style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal; text-align:left;" |
|
---|
style="text-align:center;" | The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
:{{DRV links|Thrive_(film)|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thrive_%28film%29|article=}} Subject is (sufficiently) noteworthy. I __definitely__ don't have any personal investment or interest in this film, but my sense is that it is noteworthy enough to merit an entry in Wikipedia. It has reviews in noteworthy popular media (Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/georgia-kelly/thrive-film_b_1168930.html), a legit IMDB page with 23 reviews, and so on. If it's difficult to maintain an unbiased, factual entry because of continuous sockpuppetry, that's a separate problem. Right? Joseph N Hall (talk) 08:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Also, this is apparently a 2nd request for review (the first being made shortly after the original deletion). My reading of the original discussion is that recreating the page with a short article "with sources" would not have been opposed. So, perhaps the reason that there isn't an article is that no one (other than someone using Wikipedia as a sales medium) felt like (re)creating one. Joseph N Hall (talk) 09:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Here is another print article: http://www.sfreporter.com/santafe/article-6675-new-age-of-paranoia.html. In addition, I remember a minor stir created when people featured in the film publicly distanced themselves from its content: http://www.santacruz.com/news/2012/04/10/author_john_robbins_other_progressives_denounce_thrive. Honestly, I think an article capturing this bit of perfunctory noteworthiness would be ... um, noteworthy. Joseph N Hall (talk) 09:53, 8 July 2012 (UTC) And another lengthy article (not one of the various blogs pro/con that has grown up around the film) covering the film's contents as well as various responses to it: http://www.metroactive.com/features/thrive-cult-film.html. Also, note that many of the people who have appeared in the film are notable (and appear on Wikipedia). And apparently there is a substantial web viewership (although there is no number I can verify). Anyway, enough already. Joseph N Hall (talk) 10:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm willing to write a short article. What is the procedure for creating an article to replace a deleted page? Joseph N Hall (talk) 07:58, 9 July 2012 (UTC) : No special procedure. If it hadn't been restored for DRV you could have just created it at the right title directly, as it is you're probably better off creating it in a subpage of your userspace and then moving it to mainspace once it's ready. e.g. User:Joe n bloe/Thrive. Only thing to be careful of when doing that is not to include mainspace categories until it's been moved to mainspace. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC) :: Okey doke, I will do that sometime soon when when I'm in the mood.Joseph N Hall (talk) 09:05, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
style="text-align:center;" | The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 100%; text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" |
style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal; text-align:left;" |
|
---|
style="text-align:center;" | The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
:{{DRV links|Amy Bechtold|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amy Bechtold (2nd nomination)}} :{{DRV links|David Conn (judge)|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Conn (judge)}} The closing administrator did not explain their closure of Amy Bechtold -- or David Conn (judge). I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crisco_1492&diff=499298776&oldid=499277979#Could_you_please_explain_... requested an explanation]. Disappointingly, the closing administrator [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crisco_1492&diff=499304863&oldid=499298776 merely repeated] what seemed like the same unsubstantiated misconceptions that had been advanced in the Afd even though they contradicted the specific wording of the relevant topic specific guideline -- WP:Notability (people)#Politicians. The closing administrator also asserted that these individuals did not meet the criteria in the WP:GNG. GNG is a shortcut to WP:Notability, which has a sidebar that lists a dozen topic specific guidelines. I always thought the topic specific notability guidelines supplemented, amended, and superceded the general notability guidelines. I checked the guidelines -- and their talk pages. I saw many contributors make the point that there would be no point in having topic specific guidelines at all, if the GNG had to apply to every article. I believe the topic specific guideline that applies to these two articles is WP:Notability (people)#Politicians. It has a clause that says national and state/provincial judges are notable. Some in the delete camp claimed the unofficial Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide#People essay applied instead of the topic specific guideline. I think the official guideline WP:Notability (academics) says it clearest. It asserts that individuals who met its notability criteria are notable without regard to whether the individuals do not meet the criteria of other notability guidelines. So, even if WP:SOLDIER was an official guideline -- not an essay -- it would not over-ride WP:POLITICIAN. The misconceptions I mentioned above were that in order to meet the "judge" clause of WP:POLITICIAN a judge had to sit on a "major appellate court" or a Supreme Court. This is not what the guideline says, and it is at odds with earlier closures. Finally, I dispute that the USCMCR is not a "major appellate court" -- as it is the only appellate court in the entire military commission system. Prior to the instantiation of the Military Commission system the USA had two judicial systems -- its civilian and its military judicial systems. Legal critics call it a third judicial system. Cases can't be appealed beyond the USCMCR, cannot be appealed to the SCOTUS. Geo Swan (talk) 01:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
:: I suggest that when an administrator is going to exercise IAR they have an obligation to (1) explicitly acknowledge they are exercising IAR; (2) offer a good reason as to why they are invoking IAR. In this particular case I am afraid it seems to me that the closing administrator did not bring independent neutral mind-set to the closure. The wording of the relevant guideline says nothing about "single purpose boards". I suggest that the closing administrator should have weighed in in the discussion themselves with the "single purpose board" argument, and left the closure to an administrator who could bring a neutral mind-set to the closure. :: Closing administrator asserts the board “consisted of otherwise non-notable people”. This is incorrect. The members of the United States Court of Military Commission Review were selected from among the very most senior members of the judiciary. Griffin Bell, for instance, was a former Attorney General of the United States -- a cabinet level position. William Thaddeus Coleman, Jr. was also a former cabinet member, a former Secretary of Transportation. Prior to becoming a civilian judge Edward G. Biester, Jr. served ten terms in the US Congress. All the members of the USCMCR were very senior jurists. While Bechtold was not as notable as the former cabinet members, she had served as Chief Judge of the Air Force's Court of Military Review, prior to serving on the USCMCR. Further, I suggest this portion of the closing administrator's comment suggests the closing administrator simply doesn't understand why we have topic specific guidelines, which supercede the GNG for narrow classes of topics. :: Closing administrator repeats a serious misconception I already addressed when they first voiced it on their talk page -- that the USCMCR had been "disbanded". The USCMCR convened earlier this year and can be expected to be active for some time to come -- years, possibly decades. Geo Swan (talk) 12:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC) ::* As a general rule of thumb if someone is thinking about WP:IAR then generally it's actually an invalid application of it. Any editor or admins prime focus should be about improving the encyclopedia, that may result in ignoring some rule or another, but it isn't a conscious application of WP:IAR. Not least of course to mention the admin here I assume doesn't believe it's such a case, that's your construction. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 12:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::As I was very much involved in the discussion, and remain so, perhaps some other admin will restore the articles for the discussion. DGG ( talk ) 22:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC) :::{{done}}. Note that David Conn (judge) was moved during the AfD to David L. Conn. JohnCD (talk) 10:45, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:: I'll be frank, in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crisco_1492&diff=501190191&oldid=501189595 this further comment] on their talk page the closing administrator told the nominator that I needed to read WP:WALLOFTEXT. I am afraid this further confirmed a nagging concern I had -- that the reason the closing administrator didn't address my counter-arguments was that they didn't feel closing administrators had an obligation to read the positions of contributors they didn't already agree with. :: I accept that administrators get to exercise a measure of discretion. But does that discretion authorize them to prefer the advice of a narrowly accepted essay rather than the applicable broadly accepted guideline -- without providing any explanation? This is what the closing administrator did -- they merely echoed those contributors who cited the narrowly accepted essay, and ignored the broadly accepted guideline. Geo Swan (talk) 08:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
::all US federal appellate judges are appointed, including those on the supreme court, and the logic above would mean none of them were notable. DGG ( talk ) 21:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC) ::That's kindof a given; I presumed we were discussing less-than-federal judges here. Tarc (talk) 21:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC) :::Sure. And these are US federal judges also. Which is the other government that appointed them? DGG ( talk ) 22:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC) ::::Military judge =/= federal judge. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC) :::::I think you mean they, analogous to other administrative judges, are not in the judicial branch of the government, but in the administrative branch. But their authority is derived directly from the federal government and in that sense they are federal judges. the highest level of a judge in any part of the US government is notable. DGG ( talk ) 00:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:: First, you write: “That is, this court is one layer below the federal circuit courts whose judges we regard as generally notable.” I think the wording of WP:POLITICIAN says all judges who hold a national office. Can you point to judges who hold a national officer we didn't consider notable -- even though the wording of WP:POLITICIAN says they are? :: ::* I checked. My recollection [http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=3868 was wrong], appeal to the DC Court was authorized in 2006. Geo Swan (talk) 08:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC) :: Since the DC Circuit Court of Appeals hears appeals from US District Courts in DC, which you acknowledged, are judges we consider notable, could you explain why you assert the USCMCR is more junior than the US District Court judges? Geo Swan (talk) 08:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC) ::: I'll assume for the moment that federal district judges are automatically notable (I said D.C. Circuit judges are notable, not district judges). First, CMCR judges have no life tenure, are appointed without Senate confirmation and can be removed without impeachment. Unlike federal district judges, they can't sit by designation on the courts of appeals, or any other federal court for that matter. Their jurisdiction is limited to a very narrow category of cases, and they must sit in panels to hear cases. The best normal federal-court analogue of CMCR that I can think of are Bankruptcy Appellate Panels in circuits that have them (both are composed of article I judges with limited job security and powers and both have a narrow jurisdiction), and I don't think anyone is arguing that federal bankruptcy judges are automatically notable. T. Canens (talk) 14:11, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
|
style="text-align:center;" | The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |