Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 18
=[[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 18|18 September 2014]]=
class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 100%; text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" |
style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal; text-align:left;" |
|
---|
style="text-align:center;" | The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
:{{DRV links|Overt-Kill|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Overt-Kill (2nd nomination)|article=}} Despite a consensus of 5 Keeps vs 2 Deletes, closing admin went against consensus. Closing admin feels that the keeps were "I like it", when maybe one could be read that way, the others speak to the sourcing. Ignored is the fact that the 2 deletes cited "no sources" before sourcing was added. I'm not one to canvass so I thought the piece would stand on its own merits. How can an !vote for delete for lack of sources be valid when there are sources any more than an alleged "keep it because I like it"? Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:*That comment didn't strike me as sarcastic at all. It does seem that the editor thought that personal opinions should trump arguments based on policies, which isn't going to get very far in an AfD. And the comment doesn't go on to say the sources are reliable, it goes on to say that "I have seen various sources online although probably not as many as the nominator wants", which isn't the same thing at all. Your 3-3 count is including one of "this one is popularity and good" and "appears to have enough information to be notable" as a valid argument and again AfDs aren't closed on raw numbers, even after discarding invalid arguments. Hut 8.5 06:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC) :::So two votes saying "No sources" before the article has sources carries more weight than that? Whatever dude.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 07:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
|
style="text-align:center;" | The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 100%; text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" |
style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal; text-align:left;" |
|
---|
style="text-align:center;" | The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
:{{DRV links|Susan Lindauer|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susan Lindauer|article=}} Deleted based on arguments such as "fails notability as a person. Also smells of WP:promo for her book" and BLP1E for her trial. Her references span over 10 years from her trip to Iraq, her incarceration, to her antiwar activity, to her book. She has a full profile in the New York Times Magazine that runs 5 pages. There are four references to her in the current Google News which covers only the past 60 days. There is no BLP1E for her trial, there was no trial, at an administrative hearing she was found incompetent to stand trial. That people are using the article to push their point of view about her, should not be a reason to delete. Every current president has that problem with their article. She seems to have become a symbol for conspiracy theorists, and readers need a fact based biography of her. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:: I cogently pointed out above that "fails notability as a person" is not correct at all. You can't have a 5 page profile in the New York Times Magazine and 10 years of coverage in Google News Archive and Google Scholar and contemporary hits in Google News and "fail notability". If "fails notability as a person" was consider as a valid reason for deletion, then the original AFD count was flawed. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC) :::All you're doing is re-arguing the AfD, which is not what this venue is for, and badgering everyone who said "endorse". The consensus at the AfD was to delete, and the closer judged it right. Reyk YO! 23:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC) ::::"Deletion Review may be used: if there was a substantive procedural error(s) in the deletion discussion". This is not re-arguing or badgering, it is Wikipedia policy: 1) The count was flawed, "fails notability as a person" should not count, multiple reliable sources say she is notable. The actual policy reads: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." 2) BLP1E is also incorrect she meets all three criteria to be excluded from that policy. 3) The AFD was done stealthily with none of the contributors to the article notified. 4) The actual count, including bad arguments, was a tie, and should have defaulted to no consensus. Remember AFD is not a vote, the arguments have to be policy based and be a correct interpretation of policy. 5) SpringandFall voted twice, first to delete and then, after consideration, voted to keep without removing their initial vote. Someone struck SpringandFall's second keep !vote and kept SpringandFall's first delete !vote. The proper thing to do would have been to keep SpringandFall's second !vote, not their initial !vote. Or contact them to ask which is their final !vote, not to delete the one that goes against the way you !voted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC) :::::There were no substantive procedural errors though. Claiming that certain arguments "should not count" is just you being sour that you didn't get your way. The community reached a consensus that this person did not meet notability requirements, their opinions were well argued in terms of policy, and the closer accurately gauged consensus. That's all there is to it. Just because you think people ought to have had a different opinion does not mean the close should be overturned. Reyk YO! 05:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC) ::::::All I can do is again quote policy to counter your emotional argument about me being "sour": Wikipedia:Notability says: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." If someone argues the opposite and it is counted as valid, we have a procedural error. Her father owns a newspaper but he does not own the New York Times and the Washington Post, so they are independent reliable sources. Again, I am quoting actual policy whereas you are arguing that people's opinions are valid without explaining what makes those opinions valid. People expressing their opinions are voting, AFD is not a vote. For an opinion to be counted it must be backed up by actual policy. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
:I acknowledge that this was a difficult discussion to close (in fact, it was several days overdue, perhaps because other admins didn't want to touch it with the proverbial 20 foot pole), largely due to a number of SPAs gracing us with their presence. I found the rationale advanced by User:TheRedPenOfDoom and User:Tgeairn to be the most convincing offered. Filtering out keep arguments that were basically WP:ILIKEIT, WP:ITSNOTABLE and the like, there were also two editors that made a decent go of making a policy based argument. One seemed to argue that Lindauer was a high-profile individual and thus WP:BLP1E did not apply, but I found this unpersuasive and the argument did not appear to gain much traction with the other participants. Another suggested that while a biography might not be appropriate, an article on the event itself might pass muster. I have no opinion on that, but we were dealing with a biography, not an article on an event. :This DRV seems to be introducing new information to the case, but obviously I was not able to consider arguments that had not been made. The proper time to make them would have been when the article was at AFD. In any case, I don't see anything particularly compelling that would indicate that this is anything other than a case of WP:ONEEVENT or that the article should be undeleted. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC). ::Of course if anyone who worked on the original article had been notified they would had participated, but this was done as a stealth deletion. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
:::The search " 'Susan Lindauer' Extreme Prejudice" gives 705 results in GBooks and 56 in GScholar, that is a high impact for a self published book. None of the three criteria for BLP1E are met in this case. 1. She is still in the news over 10 years later, and the events consists of her trip, incarceration, and the continuing mentions in the news as an example of medicating a person against their will to make them competent to stand trial, and her continuing antiwar activity. 2. she is not a private person because she published an autobiography and she has over a dozen interviews at news outlets on YouTube. 3. A 5 page profile in the NY Times is about her, it contains full biographical information. This is not a person in the news for a DUI, or for shoplifting, or celebrity gossip, those are what BLP1E are meant to exclude. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC) ::::9/11 conspiracy theorists are an extremely prolific bunch. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC) :::::If Google News and Google Scholar think the topic is notable, why is it that you do not? I think you are trying to get rid of the article not based on notability in multiple reliable sources, but because you do not like the fringe following of the topic. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
::*Because the consensus of the editors at the AfD says otherwise? Tarc (talk) 02:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC) :*Comment As Alansohn noted above, both sides in the AFD debate managed to entirely avoid discussing the most significant coverage of the subject, particularly the prominent feature in the New York Times. Failure to consider the most reiable sourcing clearly taints the outcome and justifies reversing the outcome. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 17:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
::Except WP:PERP says as a reason for having a biography: "The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role." (emphasis mine) We have over 10 years of coverage including a five page biographical profile in the New York Times Magazine. The unusual aspects of the event are: prosecuting an American as a foreign lobbyist and the attempt at medicating an incompetent person to make them competent to stand trial. That is why there is still coverage in the past 60 days in Google News. People are ignoring or purposefully misinterpreting Wikipedia notability rules based on their personal dislike of the subject matter and the fringe element that it attracts. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC) :::because of america's wonderful healthcare and mental healthcare system, criminal trials with mentally incompetent defendants with narcissistic delusions of grandeur are not at all unusual. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
::::Canvassing is appropriate if limited and neutrally worded. Bringing in people who have edited the Wikipedia Noability rules is a perfect example of the people to notify. Notifying the one person who participated in the AFD but who has not already commented here is perfectly appropriate. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC) :::::But that isn't what you did. User:1292simon, User:Two_kinds_of_pork (the nominator), User:BusterD, User:Rpclod, and User:Aerospeed are all non-SPA editors who also have not participated (and I would note that 4 out of these 5 !voted delete). Can you please provide an explanation?--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC) ::::Note that User:Lankiveil was invited to come here. Also note the stealth deletion where none of the writers of the article were invited to participate in the the original AFD. All the other people, except two, on your list are redlinked editors. Part of the deletion rationale was about sockpuppets and meatpuppets, those are generally redlinked users who never bother to create a user profile. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC) :::::Of the 5 users I listed, all 5 are active users with recent contributions, not SPAs. 2 of the 5 do not currently have userpages, but they are still active editors. Please explain your decision to claim accurately.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC) :::::So, what you're saying is that you didn't notify User:Rpclod because User:Two_kinds_of_pork does not have a user page. Interesting. Reyk YO! 22:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
::: As I already pointed out "if its red its dead". User:BusterD is on vacation according to his page.
::You are engaging in sophistry with the strawman argument. The book was mentioned not for reasons of notability. Notability was determined by the rule: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." If we have coverage in the Washington Post and The New York Times Magazine then she is notable. Her book was used as an example for the three requirements that exclude a person from BLP1E. If someone is a private person vs. a public person. She is a public person by publishing an autobiography and by giving interviews to ABC news and RT. Her autobiography has nothing to do with notability. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
::"While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion" Yes, it is a stealth deletion if you do not notify the people who worked on the article. This would be the same strategy as printing a legal notice in a newspaper that I do not read to notify me that my bank owes me money. We all have userpages that send emails when someone writes there. BTW, your using the strawman fallacy too. I gave 5 strong reasons for overturning the deletion, and you chose to demolish the weakest one without addressing the other 4 stronger arguments. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC) :::I saw those other arguments and they don't convince me. I stand by my "endorse". You should also realize that your incessant badgering of anybody who disagrees with you does not really do your case any good. --Randykitty (talk) 17:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC) ::::You are confusing "incessant badgering" with cogent, policy-based counter-arguments. I am sorry you feel badgered by having the actual policy quoted. Remember this is not a !vote or an opinion poll. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you very much for kindly explaining WP:NOTAVOTE to me, that's really helpful. I'll keep that in mind for next time. --Randykitty (talk) 18:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
|
style="text-align:center;" | The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |