Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 30

:{{DRV links|Jashodaben Chimanlal|xfd_page=Talk:Jashodaben Chimanlal|article=}}

I confirm the correctness and validity of all previous deletions of this article. Previous article versions were not good and gave no evidence of WP:N. {{u|Nick}} the admin tells me that this is the correct venue to ask for a new review of a new article on this person. {{u|slakr}} was the original closing admin, who did an excellent and correct close that the version of the article under discussion should be deleted and redirected.

This article has been deleted three times because WP:NOTINHERITED, which is irrelevant to WP:GNG and GNG has never before been discussed in relation to this person. I rewrote the article. This person is the subject of multiple reliable sources and meets WP:GNG. I am coming to deletion review to ask that this article be allowed to go through an WP:AfD in its current version.

This new writing of the article is not like the others.

I acknowledge that past AfDs were recent. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion/redirect result of the previous AfDs. As said at Talk:Jashodaben_Chimanlal#Contested_deletion very recently I beg to differ from nominator that GNG was never raised. Though the actual policy was not quoted, and that's good in a way to not stick walls of text, the issue was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jashodaben where User:Soman put forth that the subject had "national limelight, plenty of press coverage, and thus notable". This was the recent AfD (June) on this subject person and it was raised while she was in the highest coverage that she ever received so far when her estranged husband was sworn in as the PM on 26 May. Her notability hasn't increased at all since then. Moreover, she not getting the status in past 4 months that any PM's spouse should have got strengthens the argument that her notability is only due to her relation with the PM and thus is only inherited. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 14:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

::{{u|Dharmadhyaksha}} My perspective is different. I still say that no one asked which sources confirm WP:GNG. It only takes a few and the review should be simple enough to do. See Talk:Jashodaben_Chimanlal#Notability for three interviews, for example. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion/redirect result. Still does not meet WP:ANYBIO. EricSerge (talk) 14:51, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• A few things. First, don't edit war over redirects then use the tools so as not to hit 3RR. Second, I'm not sure the best procedure for re-written articles it to tell people to fuck off to DRV. That's not really the role of this board (as we're seeing with the discussion being about the propriety of the original deletion and not the article) and it's not like there's some benefit to having sources scrutinized and chin-scratched over rather than just writing articles. When an article is recreated in good faith with sources that weren't in the original, what's required is some investigation on the part of editors looking to see if the reasons for deletion were addressed, not what happened here. My suggestion is to allow recreation and approach situations like this with more judiciousness in the future. Protonk (talk) 15:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

:: {{u|Protonk}} - is this comment in the correct place ? I've not said to anybody to fuck off anywhere, and I've only been dealing with the article on an administrative basis.

:: The DRV request is woefully incomplete, so here's full explanation from my point of view. I was asked to look at the article and delete it (under CSD-G4 - recreation of previously deleted page, per the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jashodaben Modi (2nd nomination) - the page being moved in between the second and third deletion discussions. The page at Jashodaben Chimanlal was left set with a redirect to Narendra_Modi#Early_life_and_education after the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jashodaben in June (the outcome of the deletion discussion, per the closure by slakr). The page was deleted on 27 September 2014 to make way for the new article Blue Rasberry created, and was subsequently tagged for deletion by Dharmadhyaksha as recreation of deleted material. The speedy deletion request was removed by Cutest Penguin (sort of correctly, sort of by accident), the speedy deletion request was reinstated by Dharmadhyaksha, by reverting Cutest Penguin. That's where I first got involved, I knew that per the deletion discussion in June, the page shouldn't have been deleted, and reinstated the previous closure by redirecting he page as per the AfD closure 3 months back. I was reverted twice by Blue Rasberry, who reverted back to the version of the page last edited by Dharmadhyaksha, and in doing so, tagged the article for speedy deletion a further twice.

::I consider just over 3 months to be far too short a time to ignore the outcome of an AfD discussion, especially one that took into account notability and have directed the editor in question here to discuss their re-creation of the article. I specifically left the new article in the history, so it can be restored in full, if the decision is to allow the re-creation of the article, or alternatively, the content can be merged into the target for the re-direct if the previous closure in endorsed.

:: I have no interest in the outcome of DRV or any AFD and will not be making any comment on the merits of the article being deleted, merged, re-directed or re-created. Nick (talk) 16:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

:::It's in the right place. Telling an editor "I cannot offer any other options, there are set processes to follow on Wikipedia." and "You will need to take the discussion to deletion review and demonstrate that Jashodaben is independently notable before creating a new article." is essentially telling them to fuck off to DRV. That's complicated by the fact that DRV isn't really the right venue. So now BR has had the page redirected (and protected) and been told their only route is through DRV and is now being told (not by everyone, but still) that DRV isn't the place to go and there's another process they need to follow. BR is an experienced editor and they're certainly capable of navigating the procedures, but there's no advantage to taking such a hidebound approach.

:::I'm aware of the history on the page, so there's no need to recap that. What's salient for me is an admin edit warring over the page then protecting the page citing "disruptive editing" while the other editor is imploring them to use the talk page. None of that was necessary. The page could've been sent to DRV (if you felt that was the only option) while remaining an article or you could've had a discussion with BR about whether or not the page overcame the reasons for deletion. But you didn't. That's why I made that comment.

::: There's no hard and fast limit to when an article can be created after the last AfD. If the article was deleted for notability reasons and the new one contains sources which allow it to meet the GNG (which is what seems to be the case here, though I haven't combed through it closely), then it could be created at any point. If the new article doesn't address the concerns at AfD than it can never be recreated. In between "immediately" and "never" there's room for editors and admins to exercise their judgment. A 5 year old AfD might be considered less of a hurdle than a 5 month old one, but that's really something which can be talked over and we didn't do that here. Protonk (talk) 17:05, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment There has been a lot of things happening that shouldn't have been (including by an admin) though I expect all this has been well-intentioned. The only decisions for us here seem to be (1) were the repeated WP:CSD#G4 deletions legitimate (if the deletions were intended to be G4, or intended as deletions)? I can't see the history to judge but I have rather a feeling that they were not. (2) Is the new draft[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jashodaben_Chimanlal&oldid=627678987] a priori suitable to send to AFD (or even just allow it)? I would opt for AFD. There has been a tendency recently to delete articles about relatives of very well-known people even when extensive press coverage has been way in excess of the GNG criteria. DRV has sometimes endorsed this. Thincat (talk) 15:44, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion/redirect result It is inaccurate to say that GNG was not discussed. "Significant coverage" (GNG) was part of AfD rationale of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jashodaben Modi (2nd nomination). The latest AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jashodaben after her husband Modi became the PM of India. Soman presented evidence of "plenty of press coverage", but none was regarded significant. Does the de jure status of Spouse of the Prime Minister of India grant notability? was discussed. WP:BLP1E was also cited. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 20:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Allow recreation - Earlier when AfD were nominated the article lacked significant coverage but now it seems to be well cited with reliable sources and that's with significant coverage in multiple sources which ultimately makes the subject notable. Even while going through the references I discovered that those references are much recent than the AfD nomination dates. In the third AfD nomination the admin mentioned with suggestion that either to deletion or merger with the Narendra Modi which seems to be controversial due to separated marriage and I don't think a merger will be valid in this case. — CutestPenguin^Hangout 20:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse. Wrong advice was given on the redirect talk page. Unless challenging the XfD process or close, a non-deletion redirect based on new information or arguments does not belong at DRV. Instead, seek consensus to re-create a spinout fro the target article. The discussion should be held on the talk page of the target artice, in this case at Talk:Narendra Modi. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

:and Close the as "out of scope". There was no deletion. The use of an XfD and its close was proper. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

::As you suggested, I started a discussion at Talk:Narendra_Modi#Article_on_Modi.27s_wife.2C_Jashodaben_Chimanlal. I am confused about process also as I continue to confirm that all past AfDs were correct closes and do not want any of them reviewed, except in the context of the new article. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:38, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Allow recreation WP:CSD#G4 is not a valid rationale for an article that is substantially different from the AfD version. Ideally, recreation should be allowed and the normal AfD process used to determine whether this new version satisfies our criteria for inclusion or not. (Note: I'm not sure it does, a lot of the content appears to be mere fluffy stuff, but I think this needs to be discussed. She is, after all, the estranged wife of the Prime Minister of an important nation.)--regentspark (comment) 13:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion/redirect result Check the AFDs to see whether GNG was discussed or not, just because the person is estranged wife of the Prime Minister of an important nation doesn't make that person notable. -sarvajna (talk) 15:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

1. :It doesn't make them non-notable either. A substantially different article about a person needs to be retested for notability, especially in this case. The most recent AfD was a couple of weeks after Modi became the prime minister and there was a recency effect that would need testing.. 4 months later, we're in a better position to do that test. Using CSD as a reason to delete this article is just plain wrong. --regentspark (comment) 16:03, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

::: Repeating; "Moreover, she not getting the status in past 4 months that any PM's spouse should have got strengthens the argument that her notability is only due to her relation with the PM and thus is only inherited". §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 07:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Permit Recreation The discussion about procedure is absurd. The policy in effect is NOT BURO; there are many possible ways to write a replacement article. Coming here is one of them, and if that is the one chosen, this is the place to discuss it. Personally, I would not have reverted and protected the article--if upon coming across the recreated article I thought it was invalid I would have used another afd, but I cannot say that doing this was wrong. The technicality that the redirect is not a deletion is nonsense; after it has been protected it is effectually a deletion. One could of course seek consensus to overturn it at the talk page of the redirect; one could do it at the talk page of the main article. Whichever route chosen would be acceptable. Unfortunately, whichever route would be chosen, someone would object to using that route--paying attention to technicalities is creating unreasonable difficulties to an editor. If BR were a new editor, or even a only moderately experienced editor, instead of a dedicated WPedian, I'm fairly sure we'd never see them here again after this sort of treatment. It is altogether reasonable to discuss it here; this is where we discuss disputed recreations of articles, not merely XfD closes. I see no need to argue about the notability here (about which I am rather doubtful) --I or anyone else who doubts it can use AfD, and I suspect someone will. DGG ( talk ) 22:42, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse and close as out of scope as per SmokeyJoe.  This discussion needs content specialists on the families of Indian politicians, not DRV volunteers.  Unscintillating (talk) 03:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

:{{DRV links|Randall Bell|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Randall Bell (2nd nomination)|article=}}

Poorly executed non-admin closure of an SPA and sock-puppet riddled discussion which clearly required admin tools to close. I've discussed it with the closing editor who suggested "Looking through the article... there are enough sources to meet WP:GNG". But rather than using that as a rationale for contributing the only non-SPA keep !vote to the discussion, he decided to super-vote it closed instead. Revert non-admin closure and overturn to delete. St★lwart¹¹¹ 02:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Overturn. Non admins shouldn't close contentiously. Ask at WP:AN for an experienced admin to re-close. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Relist I agree it's promotional, and probably will be deleted, but it deserves the benefit of a proper discussion. Tho a new AfD could bestated right away, sine the close was non-consensus, this close was a misjudgment , and should be corrected explicitly. DGG ( talk ) 07:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

:* I agree that the article reads as promotion, and is not founded on independent secondary sources. I would have !voted delete in the AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse, with no prejudice to relisting. I'd probably have closed this as "no consensus with no prejudice against speedy relisting" myself, if only because it had been open forever and there was clearly socking of some sort going on. I agree that non-admins probably shouldn't close contentious discussions, but I would consider the close reasonable if User:SNUGGUMS had been an admin, so overturning would just be process wonkery. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC).

::The NAC overturn for an admin requires only you to sign the close as a close you would have done to satisfy the wonkery part. However, a slightly better explanation of the close is desirable. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:20, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

:::I don't disagree, looking at the closer's comments after the close, I'd have arrived at the same conclusion by a different path. For me, that'd be that the vast majority of contributions, from both sides, look to be suspect on some level, so a true community consensus is impossible to gauge. A fresh discussion (not just a relist) might get some more policy based arguments and clean out the noise. But yes, if it's a difficult discussion like this one it's usually a good idea to explain your reasoning when closing it. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:33, 30 September 2014 (UTC).

::::Sorry, there are equally questionable "delete" !votes but the "vast majority" of the arguments are from bender235, LaMona and myself - all established editors in good standing. If you discard the rubbish on both sides you're still left with three policy-based contributions, all opining for deletion. The closing editor disagreed with those contributions and imposed his view on the discussion. Simple as that. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:43, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Relist with a semi-protected AfD to prevent all the socking. I might disagree with this particular close, but I differ from Smokeyjoe in that I think on principle, it's generally appropriate for experienced editors to close contentious discussions even if they aren't admins. If we overturn a decision, it should be because the decision was wrong. We should never overturn a decision because the closer hadn't been entrusted with some irrelevant technical tools. That's insanely bureaucratic and authoritarian.—S Marshall T/C 01:25, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, I'm afraid. It was not an appropriate case for a non-admin closure. I agree with entirely S Marshall that experienced non-admins should be trusted to close discussions. Being an admin does not make you inherently better at that task. My problem in this case is different. If, in closing a discussion, the deletion of an article is a real possibility, a non-admin shouldn't close it, because, by definition, they lack the technical ability to carry out one of the possible outcomes. An editor closing a discussion needs to come to a decision with a genuinely open mind to all possible options. Us non-admins can't do that in AfDs where deletion is on the cards and this has nothing to do with our experience or competence. My views here are entirely consistent with the parameters of WP:NAC, which in my view is an essay justified not by an authoritarian distinction between admins and non-admins but by the reasons I've given above. As for the case at hand, I'm not for process wonkery, but I think we would benefit from having a fresh set of eyes on this, and with full reasons given for the close. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Overturn to delete- As Stalwart points out, once the invalid votes are discarded there are three delete opinions left and no keeps. An AfD with three cogent policy based delete opinions and no keeps, is consensus to delete. Reyk _YO! 04:20, 2 October 2014 (UTC)