Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 October 29

:{{DRV links|Joseph J. Allaire|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph J. Allaire|article=}}

The page deletion resulted from factual inaccuracies in the deletion discussion. I reached out to the administrator who deleted the page, User:Sandstein, and was told that because I missed the deletion discussion, the facts basically don't matter. This seems very un-Wikipedia to me.

I've highlighted and provided comments on the inaccuracies in the deletion review below.

> "(note that his brother Jeremy Allaire, is notable as the inventor of ColdFusion but that's his brother, not himself)"

This is the other way around. Joseph J Allaire was actually the inventor of ColdFusion rather than Jeremy Allaire (Jeremy provided input but otherwise didn't participate in the development of the product). Source: [https://books.google.com/books?id=zsS5BQAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=jj+allaire+coldfusion&source=bl&ots=6tiaNZbxCA&sig=-zT-h0GPYfe9pZhxlSpGs2u0K_E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCWoVChMI19Ce-7LoyAIVSZqICh2s0gOI#v=onepage&q=jj%20allaire%20coldfusion&f=false Data Intensive Computing for Biodiversity]: "The first version of ColdFusion (then called Cold Fusion) was released in 1995, written almost entirely by one man, JJ Allaire.

> "add a note on the brother's page about Joseph's minor involvement in his brother's enterprise -- sibling rivalry!!!"

This is also incorrect. Joseph was the principal founder and leader of the company rather than Jeremy. He was both the developer of ColdFusion and founding CEO. After hiring an outside CEO Joseph continued as Chairman and Executive Vice President of Products. Jeremy was a critical part of the origin and evolution of the company but formally joined it about a year after its founding and subsequently held the positions of Director of Technology and Chief Technology Officer. You can verify much of this by reviewing the company's S1 filing with the SEC, just search for all instances of "Jeremy" and "Joseph" and note the accountings of role, etc.

> "No notability outside being the ceo of Altaiere...he only additional thing this individual did is devised one of the minor components of what became the MS toolbar"

This is also an incomplete account, and not just in the name of the company (Allaire). Joseph has developed a number of other highly successful software products:

• Windows Live Writer, a desktop blogging tool from Microsoft (2)
• Lose It!, an iPhone application which was the most Lose It! was the top free iPhone Health and Fitness application in both 2009 and 2010 (http://www.loseit.com/)
• RStudio, a widely used statistical computing tool (https://www.rstudio.com) that was named one of the top 25 technology products of 2015 by InfoWorld (http://www.idgenterprise.com/press/infoworld-announces-the-2015-technology-of-the-year-award-recipients).

Would it be possible to reinstate the page? 10mbt (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment there is at least one problem with your source which says that JJ was the sole author of the original Cold Fusion. It cites that information to Wikipedia, looking back in our history it's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adobe_ColdFusion&oldid=97624317#Early_Versions here]. That refers to an articles on TopHosts.com as its source. In the wayback machine I can find that [http://web.archive.org/web/20060113065225/http://www.tophosts.com/articles/?3016.html here]. But that (a) I'm not sure is reliable anyway, it seems to be user submitted content and no reason to beleive it's fact checked etc. and (b) doesn't support the claim made anyway. So we have no reliable source to support the original authorship of ColdFusion. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment [http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/325172/an_interview_coldfusion_co-creator_jeremy_allaire/ Here's a Computer World (AU) interview] with Jeremy Allaire where he says himself that JJ was the "lead architect" of ColdFusion and he was more of a "product manager." 10mbt (talk) 23:05, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's notability guidelines are largely based on the existence of significant coverage of the subject in third-party reliable sources. The article didn't cite any such sources and none were provided in the deletion discussion. I would suggest that anyone who wants the deletion to be overturned first try to locate such sources and post them for review. Even if the subject can reasonably be described as the inventor of ColdFusion it is unlikely that we would want to have a stand-alone article on him unless the sourcing can be improved. Hut 8.5 12:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse because the close reflected the discussion and it is not the job of a closer to decide what is "true". However, if there has been a mistake this should be corrected and the first step would be to create a well-referenced draft article. By our guidelines notability isn't primarily decided by whether someone is a lead architect or a manager but it depends of what the hacks write. However, even if someone is notable, for an adequate biographical article we still need to have sufficient reliably referenced material to tell us something worthwhile. And, hypothetically, if a page is merely a pastiche of an encyclopedia article and it contains just fluffy dross, I'll vote "delete" on it because such material is unencyclopedic. Thincat (talk) 14:06, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• CommentHere's a source: [http://coldfusion.adobe.com/coldfusion/TurningUpTheHeat.pdf an IDC report hosted by Adobe] that recognizes JJ as the creator of ColdFusion in 1995. [http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=792880 The S1 filing] is also available. I'm attempting to right an important wrong; Jeremy is too often credited with being the sole creator of ColdFusion, when in reality, JJ was the author. There are plenty of articles available about the importance of ColdFusion ([http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240077723/Hot-skills-Productivity-gains-make-the-case-for-Coldfusion here's one]) and the prominence of Allaire Corp., which the Allaire brother grew to a public company then sold to Macromedia. Additionally, not only is JJ the author of ColdFusion, he's also developed the Lose It! app, which [http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/startups/2014/02/lose-it-wants-to-compete-with-weight.html has tens millions of users across the world], as well as R Studio, one of the most popular development environments for R. 10mbt (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• : To meet the WP:GNG though you'll need non-trivial coverage in multiple independant reliable sources about him. Your or my view of the signficance or otherwise of his contributions is not how notability is assessed. Given your statement I'm attempting to right an important wrong you might like to refer to righting great wrongs and wikipedia is not a soapbox --86.2.216.5 (talk) 23:22, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment (I was the nominator of the afd), but if he is notable there should be an article. As suggested, the best way to show there is notability is to try to write the article in draft space. It can then be evaluated more appropriately than here. DGG ( talk ) 03:49, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse, but relist. Let's start with the simple part; given the discussion that existed, there's no possible way this could have been closed any other way. But, there is an assertion here about a factual error in the basic premise as to why this should have been deleted. That needs to get resolved, and it's never going to get resolved here at DRV. So, I suggest we re-open the existing discussion and let that run for another week. Writing a new version of the article in draft space, with appropriate references, wouldn't be a bad alternative. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:05, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I have some sources that should put the discussion of both his notoriety and his importance at Allaire to rest now.

: * Here's an [http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB886112317986989500 article from the WSJ] that reads, "[Allaire Corp.] company founder J.J. Allaire."

: * Here's [http://www.thefreelibrary.com/J.J.+and+Jeremy+Allaire+of+Allaire+Corporation+Named+Young...-a054942692 a 1999 press release] discussing J.J. and Jeremy earning the Massachusetts Interactive Media Council (MIMC) Young Entrepreneurs of the Year award, citing J.J. as the founder of Allaire Corp.

: * [http://www.fastcompany.com/34493/growing-smart A Fast Company article] lists J.J. as founder of Allaire Corp. [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8494787.html Another from the Boston Globe] listing J.J. as founder.

: * [http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass-high-tech/2010/01/boston-based-lose-it-tops-apple-iphone-health.html A Boston Business Journal piece] details Lose It!'s ascent to and long reign at the top of the Apple App Store weight-loss charts and lists J.J. as the initial developer.

: * [http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass-high-tech/2010/01/boston-based-lose-it-tops-apple-iphone-health.html Ed Bott] article that describes J.J. as founder of Allaire and creator of Windows Live Writer.″

: * J.J. on [http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/best-colleges-10_Macalester-College_94234_2.html the Forbes List of Most Notable Macalester Alumni]

: * [http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1650251,00.asp PC Mag article] that reads, "J. J. Allaire, creator of the Web application server ColdFusion (acquired by Macromedia), is now chairman and CEO of Onfolio, which offers a Web research utility of the same name."

: * [http://venturefizz.com/blog/lose-it-how-charles-teague-went-answering-phones-running-one-boston%E2%80%99s-most-promising-consumer-t Venture Fizz profile of Charles Teague] that describes J.J. as the founder of Allaire Corp. and Charles Teague as his first employee.

What are the next steps? Should I write a draft article? 10mbt (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

• : Those may indeed be sufficient to update the articles on various topics to note his involvement, however to have a bio on him, we need sources about him, not passing mentions, not brief statements in the context of other things, or directory type listings, or words he's written, but sources where the topic of him is a significant focus. (they also need to be intellectually independant, so the press release which is the second you list here is unlikely to be suitable). This is what WP:GNG requires. Do we have those? --86.2.216.5 (talk) 19:00, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I added a draft article with the improved sources. Please take a look if interested! 10mbt (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse but restore. The AfD close was correctly decided based on the unanimous consensus to delete. I have found several sources that discuss the subject in detail:

  1. {{cite news |last=Beal |first=David |date=1999-01-26 |title=From Macalaster to Millions//Newly Public Allaire Corp., Now Based in Boston, Springs From Liberal Arts-Grounded Talent |url=http://infoweb.newsbank.com/resources/doc/nb/news/0EB5E38353880F8D?p=AWNB |newspaper=St. Paul Pioneer Press |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjFa0D56 |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

  The article notes:

  A liberal arts degree normally isn't a hot piece of paper in today's work world, but a 29-year-old Macalester College graduate just spun his into a cool $96 million.

  J.J. Allaire, who graduated from St. Paul's Macalester College in 1991, suddenly finds himself worth that much in the wake of a stock offering that took his company public last Friday.

  The software development company he started four years ago, Allaire Corp., was founded almost entirely on talent bred at Macalester. He and seven other friends from the small liberal arts school, including his younger brother Jeremy, were among the company's first 13 employees. Three of the remaining five were siblings or spouses of Macalester students.

  ...

  J.J. Allaire is the company's largest single shareholder with 19.2 percent of the stock, valued at $497.8 million based on its Monday closing price. That puts a value of $95.6 million on his stake.

  The article provides detailed biographical background about the subject:

  Green recalled working with J.J. Allaire in the late 1980s to develop a computer simulation of a presidential campaign. He said that project led to a course, "Constructing Political Theories," at Macalester and, eventually, to the concepts that underlie ColdFusion.

  Green said Allaire would say, a day or two before the deadline for a particular project or exam, that he was far from prepared. Then he would come in and breeze through it in good order.

  "He was always kind of an entrepreneurial guy. He's really imaginative. He took some computer courses, but not very many."

  Allaire is originally from Philadelphia. After his grandfather died when he was 12 years old, his family moved to Winona to care for his grandmother.

  After leaving Macalester, he did software engineering contract work for MTS Systems, Deluxe Corp. and Virtual University Enterprises in Bloomington. He also worked as an analyst for the Minnesota Department of Revenue.

  As part of the process of preparing to go public, Allaire turned over the CEO role at the company to a more experienced executive, 39-year-old David J. Orfao.

  2. {{cite news |last=Ojeda-Zapata |first=Julio |date=2006-10-11 |title=A New Frontier For Microsoft - A Former Twins Citian Is Helping the Software Giant Shed Its Image As a Plodding Pachyderm By Developing Windows Live Writer, a Small, Speedy Web-Publishing Program That Lets Blog Authors Post to Any Hosting Service, Not Just Those Run By the Company |url=http://infoweb.newsbank.com/resources/doc/nb/news/114D1DD3388690D8?p=AWNB |newspaper=St. Paul Pioneer Press |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjFvrcPq |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     When Minnesotan and Microsoft worker J.J. Allaire recently launched Windows Live Writer, a Web-publishing program for blog authors, he hardly expected the fanfare that surrounds landmark Microsoft releases such as an Office productivity suite or a Windows operating system.

     ...

     Allaire was working on his programs before Microsoft bought his Onfolio company in March, but has improved them since then. He offered them up as evidence that an exciting era is dawning at his Redmond, Wash.-based workplace.

     Allaire, a Macalester College graduate, said he and his Onfolio comrades are in good company at Microsoft.

     ...

     Allaire, in an interview, said he insisted on such broad compatibility, and met little resistance. The former Twin Citian -- who left in 1996 after founding Web-tech firm Allaire Corp. with his brother Jeremy -- said his blog-posting program may be built to work with Windows Live, but it's intended for all bloggers. It's part of a broad push to create a two-way Web in which anyone can publish content as well as read it, and develop an audience via blog-posting tools, he said.

  3. {{cite news |last=Wallack |first=Todd |date=1999-01-23 |title=Allaire sees stellar market debut |url=http://infoweb.newsbank.com/resources/doc/nb/news/0EB4DAF2519867C2?p=AWNB |newspaper=Boston Herald |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjGE2X6D |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     In 1995, J.J. Allaire invested $18,000 in a promising Web tool he had created, called Cold Fusion.

     Yesterday, the 29-year-old self-taught programmer cashed in. His Cambridge company's stock more than doubled in value on its first day of trading - giving Allaire a paper gain of $80 million.

     Allaire Corp. shares rose $23.75 to $43.75, raising $50 million. Not bad, considering the company has never turned a profit.

     But Allaire said he never thought about striking it rich when he started the Net firm in Minneapolis, a few years after he graduated from Macalister College. "It was really just about wanting to create a product," he said. He moved the firm to Massachusetts in late 1996.

     Allaire was planning a modest celebration with employees last night at a Somerville bar and another get-together over the weekend with friends.

     But Allaire, who owns just under 20 percent of the firm, won't be the only one to celebrate. Venture capitalists from Prism Venture Partners are also cashing in big. And Allaire said all 170 employees have at least some stock options. "I think people are really excited," he said.

  4. {{cite news |last=Rosenberg |first=Ronald |date=1998-08-18 |title=Web software firm Allaire plans $35m IPO |url=http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8494787.html |newspaper=The Boston Globe |via=HighBeam Research |url-access=subscription |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjGWfmYu |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     The company was founded in Minnesota in May 1995 by J.J. Allaire, then in his mid-20s. He relocated the business and its 14 employees to Cambridge nearly two years ago because he feared Minnesota couldn't supply enough technical talent.

  5. {{cite news |last=Kirsner |first=Scott |date=2004-03-15 |title=Start-Up Is in Search of the Next Big Idea |url=http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7830984.html |newspaper=The Boston Globe |via=HighBeam Research |url-access=subscription |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjGoO8BJ |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     Talk to J.J. Allaire about his new start-up, Onpholio, and you get a 1990s-era blast of vision and ambition.

     "The problem of search on the Web involves how you find things," says Allaire. "Google came along and now you can find what you want more easily. But the problem of research on the Web is how do you organize and collect what you find? The product we've built gives people a place to put what they've found online."

     Allaire isn't trying to create a better search engine; the software that Onpholio is launching today is a tool for research. It plugs into Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser and allows you to categorize, annotate, and store Web pages that you find. It's something that would be useful to a salesperson researching prospects, a consultant learning about a specific industry, or even a journalist working on a story.

     Onpholio makes it especially easy to send a summary of your research to a colleague via e-mail or to publish it to a Web page on your company's server.

     ...

     The eight-person company, known as Project31 while it was in stealth mode, is based in Cambridge. So far, it has been funded out of Allaire's pocket. Allaire, along with his brother Jeremy, started Allaire Corp. in 1995. Allaire, which made software for developing and operating Web sites, went public, and then was eventually acquired for $360 million.

  6. {{cite news |last=Kirsner |first=Scott |date=2005-02-14 |title=Regrets? He's had a few |url=http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/02/14/regrets_hes_had_a_few/?page=full |newspaper=The Boston Globe |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6cjH3neUM |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     After bugging entrepreneur J.J. Allaire for more than a year to tell me about his new company, he agreed to give me first dibs on writing about it last March. I promptly got the company's name wrong, spelling it Onpholio. (It's actually Onfolio.) That forced Allaire to register the Web domain for my misspelling, www.onpholio.com. The Cambridge company sells software that helps researchers organize and share material they find on the Web.

  7. {{cite news |last=Walker |first=Leslie |authorlink=Leslie Walker (author) |date=2004-03-25 |title=Media Giants Need To Learn to Sing A New Tune |url=http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=6647 |newspaper=The Washington Post |accessdate=2015-11-02 |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20040413163459/http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=6647 |archivedate=2015-11-02 }}

     The article notes:

     Lately I've been testing several new software programs, which together make me think no amount of suing by big-media kingpins can snuff out the creative flame sparked by the digital revolution.

     One, called Onfolio lets you grab anything you find surfing online and store it in a database, then mix and match your Web gems to produce custom reports. With the click of a button, you can e-mail the reports, store them on your computer or publish them to the Web. Onfolio is deaf, dumb and blind to copyright law; any unprotected image or text you find on the Internet is fair game for this $30 scrape-and-store toolkit. Founder J.J. Allaire says he is pioneering a new category of software he calls a "search information manager" to help the Google generation organize stuff they find online.

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Joseph J. Allaire to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 03:12, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse- based on that discussion, there is no way the closing admin could have done differently. Allow recreation if better sources have since turned up. Reyk _YO! 12:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I added a draft article with the improved sources. Please take a look if interested! 10mbt (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

:*Great work on the article, {{user|10mbt}}! Cunard (talk) 04:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

:{{DRV links|Draft:Alex Gilbert|xfd_page=|article=}}

This page is clearly notable and it has gone through many deletions etc. Has had multiple media coverage in NZ and Russia. And no it is not about a single event. The sources also cover his Non-Profit Organisation and Book. DmitryPopovRU (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment for context see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Gilbert (2nd nomination) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 24. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
• Don't not promote to mainspace I see no real improvement over the deleted version. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

::Comment Hi Stuartyeates . Actually alot has improved on this page since the deleted version. I am unsure on how translated sources work. I could translate these. This page is clearly notable. It does not cover a single event. It has massive coverage in Russia and Media Coverage in NZ, NOT only about him tracing his Birth Parents but helping others trace their own for his Non-Profit Organisation. See https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/whangarei-boy-who-traced-russian-roots-helps-fellow-kiwi-adoptees-find-bloodlines-q06939.html and http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11493462 - Yes they talk about his Birth Parents as a back story but the article is not about that. The Russia Media Coverage at first is about his Story but a STRONG source here - http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1557617/ is about him helping others just like the previous 2 sources from NZ. I suggest you take another look. Thanks --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 07:52, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

:::For the record Russian language sources are more than welcome. I'm sure that someone neurtal can find a Russian speaker to take a look at them. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

::::Comment Ok I have tagged some Russian Administrators - User:Brandmeister , User:Daniel Case , User:Halibutt for them to possibly take a look. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DmitryPopovRU (talk • contribs) 08:19, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

:::::{{user|Stuartyeates}}, Spartaz reviewed the Russian-language sources below and supports a relist. Would you also support a relist? Cunard (talk) 05:17, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::: Spartaz (the only Russian-speaker so far) was equivocal, leaning relist. I'm going to let this one run. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:38, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Could someone highlight the sources that were added since the last AfD? Hobit (talk) 12:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse doesn't appear to have had any massive notability leap since the last DRV in late August. Please don't attempt to nominate this every month. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Hi Andrew Lenahan . It clearly does. This has a huge notability leap since last August. This person gained alot of Media publicity in Russia, this was never highlighted before. The new sources as follows - **http://www.ntv.ru/peredacha/anatomia/m42880/o363224/ (Russia's NTV Network)
• http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1557617/ (Russia's NTV Network - a close article about Alex Gilbert and his Organisation)
• http://www.yarcom.ru/news/zhitel-novoy-zelandii-nashyol-svoyu-rodnuyu-mat-v-rybinske-101870 (Yaroslavl regional news, Russia)
• http://echo76.ru/news/novozelandets_aleks_gilbert_nashel_v_rybinske_svoyu_mat_brosivshuyu_ego_v_roddome/
• http://76.ru/text/news/91642971541504.html?full=3 (this article talks about his story + talks about his Book and Organisation)
• http://progorod76.ru/news/view/8287
• http://rweek.ru/2015/10/21/novozelandec-nashel-svoyu-mat-v-rybinske/
• http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2677588 (Vesti News, another main News Source in Russia)
• http://bsvesti.ru/news/usynovlennyy_roditelyami_iz_novoy_zelandii_molodoy_chelovek_nashel_v_rybinske_rodnuyu_mat/
• http://www.uaua.info/semya/otnosheniya/news-42933-aleks-gilbert-zachem-priemnyie-deti-ischut-svoih-biologicheskih-roditeley/ (An article from one of the largest Parental Magazines in the Ukraine about why People should adopt. Another new article about Alex).

:Do not forget the ones I mentioned earlier which also brings up notability. See https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/whangarei-boy-who-traced-russian-roots-helps-fellow-kiwi-adoptees-find-bloodlines-q06939.html and http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11493462. Thanks --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)|

• Comment Hi Hobit I have listed these above. Thanks --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
• Question This request was added to the page at 19.22 but contains comments written more than 18 hours earlier. Where do those comments come from? --Stefan2 (talk) 19:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

:: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2015_October_29&type=revision&diff=688005814&oldid=687991950 the history] says it was added at 1.08, there is another review on this page which [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2015_October_29&type=revision&diff=688117709&oldid=688110930 started at 19.22] --86.2.216.5 (talk) 19:51, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

::: Oh, sorry. I didn't notice that the second review was added at the top. Normally, people add new requests at the bottom of this page. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• My Russian is rusty but my reading of the news coverage is that Gilbert has now found his biological mother and that this has kicked off another round of press coverage which is pretty much the back end of the same event. For me the issue really is how 1E this now is and whether the coverage is now enduring enough to overcome `1E even if it kicks in. NTV is the national source, Ekho Moscow and Yaroslavl press are more local but not rubbishy sources - just a bit heart warming humany interest rather then hard news. I don't know whether this gives us a proper article for this young man that can endure though the years or its just another sweet tabloidy story that starts and ends for a very short section of Gilbert's life. I'm conflicted but I'd suggest the place for the discussion about the 1E is another AFD for I would recommend 'Relist Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:57, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. Lots of people find their birth parents. That this man's story is covered in the media is not sufficient to warrant an article.-gadfium 21:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse, and delte the draft version. Notability has to be for something, and I don't see it. The over-personal draft version doesn't help things. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
• relist/overturn first of all I think the original close was wrong. There were plenty of sources solely about the subject. WP:BLE is for a single event--there isn't one here. And arguments for WP:N not being met are just factually wrong. Now we have more sources. Yes, he hasn't done anything, but neither have the Kardasians (sp?) or folks of that ilk. We have coverage and nothing in WP:NOT applies, so we should have an article. (No, I wouldn't have closed this as keep, I'd have !voted, but it still isn't a policy-based close... Hobit (talk) 05:29, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment & Relist The article covers his Non-Profit Organisation 'I'm Adopted' which has been covered a lot throughout the Russian Media and the NZ Media. This article is notable and WP:BLE does not apply as yes the previous time this was nominated for deletion it was for this but the article has been improved. I have managed to find enough sources to show notability. It might need some work on the writing etc, and this article was reviewed and approved a few months back but then placed here for undeletion review the first time. This article is clearly notable. Yes alot of people find their Birth Parents, but do I have to say this a thousand times? The article covers his book and Non-Profit Organisation which has been covered enough in the Media and TV. People who are just looking at the English sources.. they need to take another look through the sources. English and Russian sources as these are allowed. This is from the show in Russia NTV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZQ502cPonA) the main story of this is about his 'Im Adopted' page, though it does include a backstory on his adoption which is a WP:BLE but the main reason for this story is about his 'I'm Adopted' Organisation. There was also clear notable sources on this here: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/whangarei-boy-who-traced-russian-roots-helps-fellow-kiwi-adoptees-find-bloodlines-q06939 , http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11493462 and http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1557617/. Just also I have added a new source onto the page and I think we should relist at the end of the day as this article is clearly notable. --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 07:03, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
• Allow recreation. The last AfD was closed 20 July 2014. There are several sources in the draft published after that AfD close. Here are two:
  1. {{Cite news|url = https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/whangarei-boy-who-traced-russian-roots-helps-fellow-kiwi-adoptees-find-bloodlines-q06939.html|title = Whangarei boy who traced Russian roots helps fellow Kiwi adoptees find bloodlines|last = Hurley|first = Sam|date = 22 August 2015|work = Television New Zealand|access-date = 22 August 2015|via = |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6b0xd5hfG |archivedate=26 August 2015 }}
  2. {{Cite news|url = http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11493462|title = Russian adoptee shares stories|last = Newlove|first = Alexandra|date = August 7, 2015|work = The Northern Advocate|access-date = August 7, 2015|via = |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6b0xOhAzQ |archivedate=26 August 2015 }}

     The article notes in the first paragraph: "A former Russian adoptee raised in Whangarei is helping other adopted people share their stories."

  The coverage of Alex Gilbert's efforts to "hel[p] fellow Kiwi adoptees find bloodlines" indicates that there is a good faith argument that WP:BLP1E no longer applies.

  Since the first DRV, the subject has received even more coverage based on the sources provided by DmitryPopovRU.

  The sustained coverage of the subject one year after the AfD indicates that concerns about the coverage being transitory were wrong. From the AfD "subjects of this kind of coverage have no ongoing notabiity (sic)" and "The amount and duration of coverage were limited, and fall short of establishing Gilbert as an ongoing notable individual."

  Cunard (talk) 02:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Hi User:Justice007 you helped with this article also last year. This article has achieved notability with exactly what Cunard mentioned before. The article has gone through massive changes since its AFD on the 20th of July 2014 which clearly makes the subject notable now. --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 05:32, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Hi have found a new strong source which does make this subject clearly notable. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11539862 . Please see Cunard , Spartaz , Hobit , Stuartyeates — Preceding unsigned comment added by DmitryPopovRU (talk • contribs) 00:06, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

:*That is a very good find. The article was published "12:30 PM Wednesday Nov 4, 2015". That is today. The article provides significant coverage about Alex Gilbert, disproves the claims in the AfD that the coverage of the subject is transitory, and provides strong evidence in support of a relist. Cunard (talk) 04:36, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: the subject works in the New Zealand media industry. All the New Zealand coverage is either in the New Zealand Herald family of newspapers or Television New Zealand family of channels (where the subject has appeared and worked); there is no obvious mention in their competitors http://www.3news.co.nz/ and http://www.stuff.co.nz/ . Stuartyeates (talk) 06:25, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Actually yes he does work in the media industry, but the new article for the NZ Herald, Russian Media are not anything to do with where he works Stuartyeates. That is not the point of the subject. --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 06:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment no the subject hasn't worked at the NZ Herald or TVNZ. Where did you see that? He has featured only in articles and videos from these media outlets. This is getting silly, really. Please don't delete the Draft. I would like to work further on this article as I think it is clearly Notable and passes the General Notability Guidelines. --DmitryPopovRU (talk) 07:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)