Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 August 20

:{{DRV links|Salimullah Khan|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Salimullah_Khan|article=}}

Salimullah Khan is a well-known public intellectual in Bangladesh. The issue that some (not most) of the links were referring to blogs can be easily addressed. It is not a sufficient ground to judge the 'notability' of the person as inadequate. The time lapse between nomination & voting for deletion and final deletion was insufficient for holding meaningful discussion or taking necessary steps over the question. I am not sure if the nomination and voting process was fair or whether it was coordinated. Wikipedia needs to have a procedure to check coordinated voting that may lead to quick deletion. Also, the contributors to the page should have a right to appeal so that painstaking work that went into creation and improvement of the article does not get destroyed by rapid deletion voting. Tahmidal Zami (talk) 06:16, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• Speedy endorse- no argument made for overturning this close. Just a lot of accusations of "coordinated voting" (whatever that is) and irrelevant complaints that the seven days every AfD gets is somehow too "rapid". Reyk _YO! 07:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
• endorse I'd prefer this stay open the normal amount of time though Reyk is correct--there is no policy-relevant reason given to overturn. {{ping|Tahmidal Zami}}, do you have sources that cover this person (in any language)? Those need to be from reliable, independent, sources and meet our (badly named) notability requirements. If no such sources exist, we are unlikely to host this article. We do worry about "systematic bias" against folks like intellectuals from Bangladesh, but we need some meaningful evidence, again from reliable and independent sources that he is a well-known public intellectual. Hobit (talk) 12:04, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
• I'm not certain that the sources below are enough to meet WP:N but given the large number and that I personally don't view interviews as problematic assuming the interview is published in a RS, I'd rather see a relist here so AfD can discuss the sources (hopefully with the input of someone who speaks Bengali). Hobit (talk) 21:12, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• evidence of notability {{ping|Hobit}}, {{ping|Reyk}}, I would like to present some secondary coverage of Salimullah Khan in national media along with some of his English language publications as evidence of notability. This is a fraction of available evidence but as the system demands presentation of evidence within a short notice, I had to compromise comprehensiveness.

List of articles published by Salimullah Khan in the largest circulated Bangladeshi English daily the Daily Star:

= “Abdul Karim's discoveries - Origins of modernity in Bengali literature”, The Daily Star, October 10, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/in-focus/abdul-karims-discoveries-origins-modernity-bengali-literature-154528

= “Reading Nazrul Islam after Walter Benjamin”, The Daily Star, August 29, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/in-focus/reading-nazrul-islam-after-walter-benjamin-134326

= “AHMED SOFA IN WEIMAR: A Bangali tribute to Goethe”, The Daily Star, July 28, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/politics/ahmed-sofa-weimar-bangali-tribute-goethe-117586

= “Nazrul's passages from modernity”, The Daily Star, April 14, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/supplements/naboborsho-special-1422/nazruls-passages-modernity-77178

= “The Gaze as 'little object a': Bangladesh at the United Nations in 1971”, The Daily Star, March 26, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/supplements/independence-day-special-2015/the-gaza-little-object-bangladesh-the-united-nations-1971

= “Professor Abdur Razzaq on India’s Partition and Independence”, The Daily Star, December 30, 201, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/prof-abdur-razzaq-on-indias-partition-and-independence-57586

= “A Tribute to Jashimuddin”, the Daily Star, May 30, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/star-people/tribute-jasimuddin-71424

= “Spirit of Liberation War”, The Daily Star, November 18, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/spirit-of-liberation-war-50936

= “On the Allegorical Gaze of Meghmallar”, The Daily Star, December 14, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/on-the-allegorical-gaze-of-meghmallar-55178

= “Kamruddin Ahmad”, The Daily Star, February 6, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/kamruddin-ahmad-63474

= “Equity and participation in tertiary education”, The Daily Star, September 10, 2013, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news/equity-and-standards-in-tertiary-education

Interviews of Salimullah Khan published in The Daily Star:

= “The Origins of Communalism”, The Daily Star, January 24, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/the-origins-of-communalism-7950

Sample Book reviews for works by Salimullah Khan published in national newspapers:

= Taimur Reza, “Chandal guru’r hokikot”, Prothom Alo, Apr 16, 2010, url: http://archive.prothom-alo.com/print/news/56619

Some Articles of Salimullah Khan published in the second largest English language newspaper New Age:

= “A poetic testimony of the liberation war”, New Age, March 26, 2016, url: http://newagebd.net/215197/a-poetic-testimony-of-the-liberation-war/

= “The Bangla question in Bangladesh”, New Age, February 21, 2016, url: http://newagebd.net/204932/the-bangla-question-in-bangladesh/

Some Articles of Salimullah Khan published in largest circulated Bengali Daily Prothom Alo:

= “Baje Jashimuddin”, Prothom Alo, March 18, 2011, url: http://archive.prothom-alo.com/detail/date/2011-03-18/news/139291

Some Citations of speech or participation by Salimullah Khan published in national newspapers:

= “Film activists criticize children of war”, New Age, June 4, 2014, url: http://newagebd.net/17432/film-activists-criticise-children-of-war/

= “Muktijuddhe Shohid-er Shonkhya Niye Ohetuk Bitorko Kora Hocchee”, Prothom Alo, January 16, 2016, url: http://www.prothom-alo.com/bangladesh/article/741115/%E0%A6%AE%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%95%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%AF%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A7%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B6%E0%A6%B9%E0%A7%80%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%B8%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%BF%E0%A7%9F%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%85%E0%A6%B9%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%95-%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%95

= “Do not show audacity”, New Age, January 22, 2016, url: http://newagebd.net/195637/do-not-show-audacity/

= “Ahmed Sofa Shopno dekhten shopno dekhaten”, Prothom Alo, June 28, 2014, url: http://www.prothom-alo.com/bangladesh/article/252985

= “Pulish-ke aro shocchho o kholamela howar poramorsho”, Jugantor, April 3, 2016, url: http://www.jugantor.com/last-page/2016/04/03/22629/print

= “Sector Commander Nuruzzaman remembered”, New Age, May 11, 2014, url: http://newagebd.net/10237/sector-commander-nuruzzaman-remembered/

= “Abul Mansur Ahmad yet to get proper recognition”, New Age, March 19, 2015, url: http://newagebd.net/104298/abul-mansur-ahmad-yet-to-get-proper-recognition/

= “Ahmed Sofa wrote for the underprivileged”, The Daily Star, November 1, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/ahmed-sofa-wrote-for-underprivileged-48350

= “A legacy we tend to ignore”, The Daily Star, January 17, 2003, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news/a-legacy-we-tend-to-ignore

= “A fiesta of Art”, The Daily Star, September 7, 2015, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/arts-entertainment/arts/fiesta-art-139126

= “Professor Razzaq stirred students’ hunger for knowledge”, The Daily Star, December 21, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/prof-razzaq-stirred-students-hunger-for-knowledge-56331

= “Communal terror continues”, The Daily Star, January 17, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/communal-terror-continues-7006

= “Looking at Sultan beyond his art”, The Daily Star, July 14, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/looking-at-sultan-beyond-his-art-33165

= “Documentary screening and conversation on SM Sultan”, The Daily Star, July 10, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/documentary-screening-and-conversation-on-sm-sultan-32606

= “Reading in Translation”, The Daily Star, February 18, 2005, url: http://archive.thedailystar.net/magazine/2005/02/03/cover.htm

= “Non-citizen status of Rohingyas in Myanmar criticized”, The Daily Star, October 13, 2012, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-253645

= “Cultural struggle and Akhtaruzzaman Elias”, The Daily Star, February 15, 2008, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-23366

= “Ahmed Sofa was voice for the deprived”, The Daily Star, July 28, 2012, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-243803

= “Publications of two books on works of Ahmed Sofa”, The Daily Star, February 9, 2009, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-75103

= “Non-uniform primary education discriminatory”, The Daily Star, May 11, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/non-uniform-primary-education-discriminatory-23623

= “Bangla should be language of higher court”, The Daily Star, February 17, 2013, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-269358

= “Introduce inclusive education to modernize education system”, The Daily Star, June 14, 2009, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-92533

One voter advocating deletion mentioned h-index which is mainly focused on scholarly papers mainly in European languages. Salimullah Khan's writings are chiefly in Bengali and are respectable Bengali publications which are unavailable in the internet.

Tahmidal Zami (talk) 9:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• Tahmidal, it would be useful for you to read WP:N and WP:RS, to get a better idea of the kind of sources we're looking for. For example, the first set of sources you cite above are articles by the subject. These don't really contribute to an establishment of notability, by our rules. What we're looking for are things that other people have written about the subject. Also, I see that the vast majority of the sources you present are from a single publication, The Daily Star. We prefer to see sources from a variety of places. The other problem (and I know this doesn't sound like a problem at first) is that you've presented too many sources. I doubt anybody is going to invest the time to read all of those. So, my suggestion to you would be to carefully read WP:N and WP:RS, then come back here and list the threee, and no more than three sources which you believe best meet our requirements. That will make it a lot easier for people to evaluate. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:12, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• RoySmith, {{ping|RoySmith}} here I provide three sources according to your requirement. The three are not produced by the subject, i.e. are independent third-party sources, written by other people, not from the same publication, and provide significant coverage of the subject. Since sources from any language is acceptable, I have included Bengali sources. This is justified as we are speaking of a Bengali-speaking Bangladeshi intellectual who writes in Bengali and English.

Interview of the Subject published in the leading English Language newspaper The Daily Star:

“The Origins of Communalism”, The Daily Star, January 24, 2014, url: http://www.thedailystar.net/the-origins-of-communalism-7950

A report in the largest Bengali newspaper Prothom Alo on speech by Salimullah Khan on Bangladesh liberation war:

= “Muktijuddhe Shohid-er Shonkhya Niye Ohetuk Bitorko Kora Hocchee”, Prothom Alo, January 16, 2016, url: http://www.prothom-alo.com/bangladesh/article/741115/%E0%A6%AE%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%95%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%AF%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A7%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%B6%E0%A6%B9%E0%A7%80%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%B0-%E0%A6%B8%E0%A6%82%E0%A6%96%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BE-%E0%A6%A8%E0%A6%BF%E0%A7%9F%E0%A7%87-%E0%A6%85%E0%A6%B9%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%A4%E0%A7%81%E0%A6%95-%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%95

An interview of Salimullah Khan published in Samakal, one of the most circulated Bengali daily newspaper:

“Ekhane Dhormiyo Choromopontha Kokhonoi Bijoyi Hoy ni”, Samakal, April 17, 2013, url: http://archive.samakal.net/print_edition/details.php?news=23&action=main&option=single&news_id=340101&pub_no=1381&view=archiev&y=2013&m=04&d=17

As I have requested the deletion review, I am responding in short notice to comply with the evidentiary requirements. If you require further specifications or other kinds of additional evidence, please let me know.

Tahmidal Zami (talk) 17:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you for supplying those, Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm going to have to endorse the deletion based on these sources. The first and third are interviews, which we generally don't consider to be good sources. While you are correct that non-English sources are allowed, as a practical matter, since I don't read Bengali, I had to rely on the auto-translation available in Chrome, which is not perfect. Given that, however, I'd have to say the second source is a very short article and doesn't meet our requirement for significant coverage. As an alternative to deletion, I would suggest that this could be restored to draft space, where you can work on researching additional, and better, sources. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

::Revising my opinion; I'm still not terribly impressed with the sources presented here, but enough of them are plausible that sending this back to AfD is a good idea. -- RoySmith (talk) 11:17, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Firstly, The general notability guideline or reliability guideline do not mention that interviews are unacceptable sources.

:::Please see WP:INTERVIEW -- RoySmith (talk) 21:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Secondly, as for non-interview sources, I have presented in my 'evidence of notability' post numerous articles which are not written by Salimullah Khan and which mention him. Most of these articles contain around 50/100 words or more dedicated to him. You said no one would invest as much time as needed to look into each of the articles and also that these should not be mostly from one newspaper/source. I can provide similar sources from other newspapers as well.

Tahmidal Zami (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment As the deleting admin it is not appropriate to post a !vote here. But I will point out firstly, that this article was posted in AfD for the statutory seven day period; secondly, that is received four delete opinions and of course the delete nomination, with no dissenting opinion; thirdly, the impressively long argument on this page in favour of re-listing is posted by the author of the article. The validity of the references now presented, which were not presented in the article or in the AfD discussion, are for the community to decide. --Anthony Bradbury^"talk" 17:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
• Send back to AfD, per RoySmith, for the newly presented sources to be considered. No criticism of the AfD closer, it couldn't have been closed any other way. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:27, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse: the close was fairly straightforward (all policy-backed deletes). The article can be recreated if better sources are found, but the outcome should not be overturned.

:I would be OK with a WP:IAR "send back to AfD", but I disagree with the argument that because sources are presented here it should be overturned. The consensus, right or wrong, was clearly that the sources were insufficient, and the closing admin is not supposed to re-evaluate statements of fact. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 16:19, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse and userify for the editor/author of the article to put together an appropriate article, which can be AfD'ed without prejudice once put back into mainspace. That is, you get the poor article back with which to work to upgrade it using all these sources you provided here, and if anyone disputes your work in the future, a new AfD can take a fresh look at it. Jclemens (talk) 04:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)