Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Forever & Always/archive1

:Nominator(s): Ippantekina (talk) 10:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

This article is about a 2008 song by Taylor Swift, written when she was 18 years old. She dated Joe Jonas for 3 months and he unceremoniously dumped her via a 30-second phone call, which inspired this song. I personally see this song as an interesting snapshot of teenage breakup and anger, and I think this article satisfies criteria for an FA. Ippantekina (talk) 10:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

• I'm still uncertain about the "certified platinum", "platinum", and "certified gold" pipes, they can probably be adjusted a bit as per MOS:PIPE
• "Swift includes" / "Annie Zaleski describes" / "Zaleski calls" - why present tense?
• We can indicate who Zaleski is for consistency with Lee and Perone

Can't really see any other prose issue, great work once again. I've made some minor edits to fix some minor errors, feel free to make any adjustments. Medxvo (talk) 13:08, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks Medxvo, I've addressed all of your points :) Ippantekina (talk) 03:37, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

Happy to support. Medxvo (talk) 08:52, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

• "chart dated November 5, 2009" - November 5 or November 14?
• Ref 21 doesn't mention Republic
• Refs 37, 45, and 54 can be archived
• Refs 63 and 64 seem live
• Ref 43 parameters can be updated to the latest version

Medxvo (talk) 13:08, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|Medxvo}} thanks very much for this, too! I've addressed all of your points. IABot weirdly didn't add archive-URLs for the 3 refs you mentioned, so I added them manually... Ippantekina (talk) 03:56, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:01, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I will get to this on or sometime before Sunday, hopefully.--NØ 03:50, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

• The 2008 version [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAVvk7o_3Y is] on Swift's YouTube channel, so it should probably be linked in the first infobox if the Taylor's version is going to be linked in the second. It is not really encyclopedic for us to express a preference between the two.
• "Journalists have commented that the song became the blueprint for Swift's songwriting inspired by her high-profile romantic relationships in her later career." - Swift could keep releasing music for many more decades, so the "later career" bit is going to age. How about just "[...] Swift's later songwriting inspired by her high-profile romantic relationships"?
• "Taylor Swift wrote songs for her second studio album, Fearless, while touring as an opening act for other country musicians to promote her debut album Taylor Swift during 2007–2008, when she was 17–18 years old." - Could we have the release year for the debut?
• "She pleaded with Big Machine Records' head Scott Borchetta to let her include the track on the album a day before the track list finalized" - could be "[...] before the track list was finalized", otherwise it sounds like the track list finalized itself.
• "The production was rushed at the last minute because Swift wrote songs as life events happened around her; "I can write something, call up my producer, we can get in the studio, put a rush on it, get an overnight mix." - Shouldn't this semicolon be a colon?
• "Recording for "Forever & Always" completed in October 2008" - Like the above, a "was" after the song title would help clarify the recording did not self-complete. In the following paragraph, you say "A "Piano Version" of "Forever & Always" was released as part of the Platinum Edition", and not "A "Piano Version" of "Forever & Always" released as part of the Platinum Edition". It sounds more correct with that additional word.
• "Swift left Big Machine and signed a new contract with Republic Records in 2018" - "new" is redundant
• "Swift, in a May 2019 appearance on the Ellen show, recalled that "[putting] Joe Jonas on blast" in the past was the "most rebellious thing" she did as a teenager, admitting that her outburst was "too much" - This feels a bit trivial here since she did not mention "Forever & Always" in the interview and I believe it was mostly about Lover. The placement of a 2019 incident right before the explanation of the lyrics of a 2008 song does not really flow.

:*I think it's worth keeping as this part is discussed in Zaleski's book regarding this specific song, which proves that it provides at least some contextual significance. Ippantekina (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

• There would need to be a strong rationale for an article to carry two 20+ second-long copyrighted samples, which I am not seeing for the Piano version. I mean, it is pretty generic piano instrumentation which can probably be conveyed through words alone? But I am open to an explanation otherwise

:*I think the Piano sample provides how it contrasts with the original arrangement, which is potentially helpful to readers. Ippantekina (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

• "became a blueprint for Swift's songwriting about her failed relationships that received media coverage" - Not sure about using the term "failed relationships" outside of direct quotes

:*I think it's a fairly common phrasing so it should be okay. Ippantekina (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

• "Before the performance, the stage screened a video of Swift's mock interview with Hoda Kotb; Kotb asked why men should date Swift if she was going to write songs to call them out, to which Swift replied that they "shouldn't do bad things" - This feels like a lot, considering it seems like this wasn't actually part of the performance?--NØ 16:10, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

:*Hi {{re|MaranoFan}}, thanks for the comments! I've addressed everything except where I replied above. Let me know if they make sense! :) Ippantekina (talk) 04:45, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

::*I wouldn't allow two audio samples (of the same part in two different versions of the same song) that both stretch to the maximum permitted duration even in a GAN I was reviewing, so it feels out of bounds for an FA. But I do not care to oppose over it. Best, NØ 14:20, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

::*:The lengths of the samples are within what's permitted by NFCC so I think it should be fine. Thanks for the review, Ippantekina (talk) 03:28, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

::*::You could upload the whole song in 11 different 20-second samples and, by this logic, they would each individually be within the duration permitted by the NFCC--NØ 16:59, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::*Hence I picked the first refrain of each version for each sample to ensure side-by-side comparison, making sure 2 non-free samples could sufficiently demonstrate/support the prose. Ippantekina (talk) 05:50, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::*After the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:FAC_coordination&oldid=1280956315#Forever_&_Always second opinion] from FrB.TG, I am comfortable letting this go and offering my support. The potential removal of the sample in the case of a future consensus should be easy to do and everything else looks fine.--NØ 15:23, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::*:Thank you very much for your time and review, Ippantekina (talk) 15:29, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Found", used three times throughout the article, is under MOS:SAID.
• I would add "at several events, including" in the lead when referring to the live performances since these two ("2009 Country Music Association Awards and on her Fearless Tour") are not the only ones.
• Link first mention of re-recording in body (Production and release).
• "Tom Breihan opined that Swift's matured vocals added" - I think it should be "add" instead of "added" for consistency? E.g. "that allows" and "the song contains" are in present tense.
• For the links in Personnel: "recording engineer" could be linked, "mixing engineer" could just be "mixing engineer", and "drums" seems like a common term. CatchMe (talk · contribs) 06:00, 25 February 2025 (UTC)
• :Thanks for the comments, I've addressed all of your points! Ippantekina (talk) 13:23, 25 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::Looks great! I support this nomination based on prose. CatchMe (talk · contribs) 20:30, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

• No issues with the free images (:File:JoeJonasSep10 3.jpg and :File:Taylor Swift - Fearless Tour - Los Angeles 04.jpg). Flickr pictures with confirmed license and Source and Author active links. Appropriate alt text and captions too. The last picture's caption says "(2010)" but the tour started in 2009. Maybe it refers to when the image was taken; in that case, "in 2010" would be more accurate imo.
• The audio samples (:File:Forever & Always by Taylor Swift (sample).ogg and :File:Forever & Always Piano Version by Taylor Swift (sample).ogg) have the proper length per WP:SAMPLE. They have a understandable meaning for this article. I may agree with MaranoFan's comment above about the Piano Version sample, but it does not seem like a plain piano version as it has a great amount of content to explain its use. But I am open to other opinions.

These are all of my comments. CatchMe (talk · contribs) 06:00, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for the image review! I believe the Piano Version sample adds value and contrast to the original version, which supports the prose. Ippantekina (talk) 13:23, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

::Pass for the image/media review as well. CatchMe (talk · contribs) 20:30, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Some brief comments before I look over in more depth:

• "Inspired by her relationship with Joe Jonas in 2008" what "in 2008" is modifying is ambiguous

:*Done. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Joe Jonas (pictured)" pictured is very redundant

:*Done. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "mature" seems to be functioning as a euphemism for "older".

Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 02:55, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

General comments, feel free to push back on any:

• "A "Piano Version" was released as part of the Fearless: Platinum Edition reissue." date this statement

:*Done. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "highlighted the tumultuous emotions in Swift's vocals}} displayed in Swift's vocals. I also am not convinced tumultous is the best adjective here

:* Removed. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Journalists have commented that..." after this the text doesn't flow smoothly, it reads as a series of bullet points.

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "charted in Australia, Canada, Singapore, and the United States." Did it not also chart in the UK? Is it possible that it charted elsewhere and we do not have information? In which case it is inappropriate to claim it charted exclusively in these locations (I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at)

:*No it did not chart in the UK. Swift's entire UK chart history is found [https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/5387/taylor-swift/ here] Ippantekina (talk) 16:45, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Taylor Swift wrote songs..." this sentence is too long
• The background section saying Swift, as a teenager, wrote about personal experiences, from the perspective of a teenager, is saying very little. I don't think it really reflects what the source is saying.

:*Removed redundancy. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• The comment on "face" is too decontextualized to make sense: the next sentence implies these are all different lovers, but the Oakland Press source notes that one is about her friend Abigail

:*Ditto. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "teenage girl's perspectives" can you tell me why this is a plural?

:*Ditto. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "as she told Rolling Stone" if you're going to put it in wikivoice rather than attribute (e.g. because she said), the attribution is redundant.

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "The production was rushed at the last minute because Swift wrote songs as life events happened around her" overly informal

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• I'm a little confused with the timeline, did she record the song after it was included on the tracklist?
• I will ask simply as I would like to hear your thinking and I will not oppose on this basis, how is the reader served by reading that the track was mixed by Chad Carlson? He is not notable, for them it is simply a random name. Who mixed the track does not receive emphasis in secondary sources. What makes this DUE? What benefit does naming confer?

:*Mixing is an important process of music recording, so I think it's worth mentioning his credit in prose. I think in general song FAs mention credits and personnel in prose to provide background info on how the song came to be. Ippantekina (talk) 16:52, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::*I think it's sufficient to include it once in the article, in the credits, if the mixing has not been noted upon by secondary sources. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 06:31, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:::* I concur actually. I trimmed the production credits part in prose, leaving them in the "Personnel" section. Ippantekina (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

• {{green|It was one of Swift's nine songs on the Hot 100 that week}} → {{red|It was one of nine songs Swift had on the Hot 100 that week}}

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• {{green|making her the first female artist to have nine chart entries at the same time}} → {{red|the first time a female artist had held nine chart entries at the same time}}

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "open about this breakup" open that it occurred or about its character?

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "admitting" MOS:SAID

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "sarcastic turn" is turn appropriate for what this is?

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 04:32, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

• I feel a bit icky about the Writing and lyrics section. The article writes that Swift in retrospect felt she went overboard with putting Jonas on blast: he was an 18 year old who dated her for a few months and broke up with her in an inconsiderate and immature manner. The line between narrator and Swift seems very thin, and we're essentially writing paragraphs about how Nick Jonas ran and hid "like a scared little boy". It's gossipy, and I'm skeptical it aligns with our BLP policy, even with WP:PUBLICFIGURE. I'd like to get a second opinion.

:*My view is that per WP:LYRICS the content of the song is discussed, in prose, entirely in relation to the song's the narrator (emphasising the narrator and not Swift herself, though this might be murky as the song is autobiographical in nature). The background info might appear gossipy, but it was discussed in secondary sources in relation to this song, so that might be a paradox, but then, it's like speculating who "You're So Vain" or "How Do You Sleep" are about imo (yes, pop culture). Ippantekina (talk) 16:48, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::*I like your answer, although conspicuously WP:LYRICS doesn't mention BLP. When the other points I have raised are addressed I will be leaning support. I've also written on the BLP noticeboard requesting input here. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 06:31, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

::*:I think it's fair, I would also like to get other opinions on this as well. I'll get to your other points soon! Ippantekina (talk) 09:12, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

• "basically screaming it"

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "described the sound of this version as "piano rock""

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "resembled the styles" resembles (the songs are described in present tense throughout)
• Consider linking Upright piano

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Several reviews of "Forever & Always" commented on its production" summarize more substantially

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

• "tablet-bating" spelling

:* I think "tabloid" makes sense as in tabloid journalism. Ippantekina (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• "with a storyboard" the source is analogizing her actions to story-boarding

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

• "the latter was impressed by Swift's ability" we are putting in wikivoice that Swift has this ability

:* Tweaked. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

• "the Florida Strawberry Festival in February" fails verification
• What do you see as the benefit of exhaustively listing off all the times she has performed the song since? I think "Swift occasionally performed "Forever & Always" on her later concert tours." adequately communicates this information.

:* I think it makes sense to include all relevant performances of the song as "Swift occasionally performed "Forever & Always" on her later concert tours." is overgeneralizing as to on which tours she performed this song.. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Suggestions:

• {{green|the lyrics are about}} → {{red|the lyrics detail}}

:*I'm not sure how this would read better tbh. Ippantekina (talk) 16:45, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

• {{green|The re-recorded song}} → {{red|the new version}} (re-recorded repeated thrice in proximity)

:* Done. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

• {{green|dated November 14, 2009}} → {{red|on November 14, 2009}}?

:* Not really "on" because the chart was published prior to the issue date of Nov. 14; I rephrased this bit. Ippantekina (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 07:53, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you for your helpful comments! I've addressed all of them save for the BLP issue that you raised. Looking forward to your response, Ippantekina (talk) 02:21, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks Ippantekina, I just see two left:

::*Florida Strawberry festival source doesn't verify text

::*Spelling "baiting" as "bating"

::Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 02:28, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Both should be done. I tried to find a replacement for the Strawberry fest set but couldn't find one so I removed it. Ippantekina (talk) 02:12, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks for making the requested changes, moving to support.. I'm moving from support. After the post to the BLP noticeboard received no comments affirming my concern, I discarded it as against community consensus. However, {{U|Herostratus}} has since commented, echoing my concerns. I've left a comment at WT:FAC requesting more input. I also haven't moved to oppose, as I essentially endorse Herostratus' suggestions and think they are actionable in a timely manner. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 03:04, 13 March 2025 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 05:49, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::I can wait for a consensus at the BLP noticeboard. My opinion remains the same but I'm open to revise the article should the community deem it a violation of BLP otherwise. Ippantekina (talk) 09:14, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Apologies Ippantekina, this has slipped my mind. Per discussion at BLPN, I support. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 02:54, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Thank you very much for your review and time :) Ippantekina (talk) 02:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• "Big Machine released Fearless on November 11, 2008; "Forever & Always" is track number 11." → "Big Machine released Fearless on November 11, 2008, with "Forever & Always" as the 11th track."

Since that's all I got, I'm happy to offer my support. Great article! – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:45, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks zmbro! :) Ippantekina (talk) 02:12, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

• {{ping|Gog the Mild}} may I know how's this looking like? I know there's a BLP discussion in place, I want to have an overview of how that would impact this FAC. Many thanks, Ippantekina (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::We, the coordinators, {{@FAC}}, are waiting a few days to see if consensus forms at the noticeboard and - if it does - what happens then. Meanwhile we are keeping our powder dry. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

{{FACClosed|promoted}} FrB.TG (talk) 19:59, 18 March 2025 (UTC){{Fa bottom}}