Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mary Rose/archive1

{{la|Mary Rose}}

:Nominator(s): Peter ^Isotalo 23:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

{{Wikipedia:Featured article tools|1=Mary Rose}}

Hot on the heels of my most recent FA comes the Mary Rose, the reason that the first was updated in the first place. I've been working on this article for over six months and have been diving (heh) deep into sources on everything from early modern naval tactics to musical archaeology. For the first time in the five years that I have been active on Wikipedia I contacted a cultural institution for direct assistance, the Mary Rose Trust, and scored big. My work on the article flattered the Trust enough to secure [http://blog.wikimedia.org.uk/2010/01/mary-rose-trust-releases-photographs-onto-wikipedia/ the first Wikmedia-related image donation from a UK organization], and that generosity even received some [http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+%2526+heritage/transport/maritime+history/art74542 press coverage].

I'd like to extend my appreciation to all those who have helped out with copyediting, grammar tweaking and reviewing, including, but not limited to, Nick-D, Tony and Malleus Fatuorum. And of course all the editors who helped build up the original article long before I even decided to make a major project of it, like Benea, Viv Hamilton and Neddyseagoon. I'd also like to thank Mike Peel and Durova who were both immensely helpful in assisting with the image donation. They also helped me get all kinds of snags I managed to get myself into due to my inexperience with GLAM interaction .

So, after that long and rambling preamble, I hand over to your loving care and careful scrutiny a somewhat less rambling, but certainly much longer, article. I look forward to your advice, criticism and comments.

Peter ^Isotalo 23:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comments. No dab links or dead external links. The images are truly impressive; it was a pleasure reviewing the alt text. I made a few small fixes and see no problems, except that :File:Mary Rose Guns ForeBronzeCulverin RearWroughtIronCannon.png is missing alt text. Ucucha 00:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
• I thought the regular description was actually sufficient in that case. Alt text added, though. Peter ^Isotalo 06:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Thank you! Ucucha 12:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Image check: 23 or so images (I lost count); all are Public Domain (old, one released) or CC-by-SA with the author attached; they're all on Commons except for :File:Mary Rose Guns ForeBronzeCulverin RearWroughtIronCannon.png, which needs it's wiki-en version deleted in favor of the commons version. The disputed tag on :File:Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk from NPG.jpg is of no concern as policy holds that it is free use. Captions are good on all images. Good job! --PresN 04:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
• Deletion done. Ucucha 16:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

{{collapse|1=

Comments: Peter, this is a fantastic article and you've done a brilliant job expanding it to its present state. It's particularly impressive that this manged to get onto the DYK page as well, and that's a testament to how much work you've done. I'll give it a good read in the next few days (last time I read it was when it was a DYK) and add some comments then, but there is one thing that leaps out at me at first glance that I thought I'd mention sooner rather than later to give you time to work on it.

I'm a little worried about the referencing - I'm usually far more generous than some editors who want every sentence footnoted, but even I'm a little unsure that there's enough refs here. There are whole sections relying on one single footnote at the end of the paragraph (such as Deterioration, Modern rediscovery, Salvage etc...) - now I imagine that the single ref covers all before it, but I think it might need to be a bit more specific than that. As an example, the Barber Surgeon's Cabin section covers several subjects not directly related to the last sentence - I would hope for seperate refs for at least the first and second sentences as well (especially the first, its quite a strong assertion). This is the same at other sections reyling on one or two refs. I hate to say it, but as it stands I could easily add quite a lot of citation needed tags to the article.

As I said I'll have a more thorough read in the next few days, but I just wanted to highlight this quickly to give you as much time as possible. Cheers, Ranger Steve (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:First off, thanks for taking a thorough look at the article and for your positive comments. It's a nice thing to hear after all those months of tedious toil.

:I'll see what I can do about the first sentence of "Barber-surgeon's cabin". I agree that it can be seen as subjective, though it's quickly obvious once you start reading literature that the chest is one of the finds that is mostly frequently cited as important. I don't agree about the rest of the section, though. The explanation of the role of the barber-surgeon is merely background that is directly relevant to the summary of the finds, and all of it is easily referenced with Before the Mast (Gardiner 2005, that is).

:Depending on whether a paragraph covers simple chronologies of events or summaries of contentious or complicated issues, they'll require different levels of referencing. That's why "History as a shipwreck" has fewer notes than "Causes of sinking". There are no hard rules about footnote density and the fact that some editors prefer to use citations more often than others doesn't mean that everyone has to follow their example. In general, I'm sure I've not written The Perfectly Referenced article, and I welcome suggestions for improvement, but I imagine that these, like any other suggestion for improvement, should be reasonably specific.

:Peter ^Isotalo 08:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::I’m sorry, but I’m not going to go through the entire article and then list each sentence here. There are loads of sentences that require a reference, as they are challengeable claims. In the main you’ve done a very good job in keeping the topic of a paragraph focussed on one issue, and I can see that the final citation likely covers earlier sentences (per point 4 here). But not always. In some paragraphs the coverage of subjects is too wide for me to confidently assume that the single footnote at the end covers everything. Some para’s don’t seem to be referenced at all, given that the final sentence is a quotation (eg. Contemporary accounts) and I presume that the ref is for that alone (it should be). Some other quotations aren’t directly referenced at all. Like I said, I’m a lot more relaxed about this than some editors, but there are people who could pepper this with fact tags. You’ve got two editors suggesting more footnotes throughout the article now, please consider that. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::I'm sorry if we're not in agreement on this, but I have trouble understanding some of the points made here. I'll try to to explain my doubts as best I can:

:::I've gone through the article by searching for every singe quotation mark and I could only find two that were somewhat ambiguous, which I amended.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Rose&action=historysubmit&diff=344887479&oldid=344883359][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Rose&action=historysubmit&diff=344891010&oldid=344887479] All other quotations appear very clearly cited to me.

:::As for paragraphs ending in a quotation, the first paragraph of "Contemporary accounts" and the second paragraph of "Sails and rigging" are the only examples in the whole article. Both are preceded by explanation directly tied to the quote and everything before that is cited separately.

:::From my experience 90% of the content on Wikipedia, including that which is obviously referenced, is apt to be fact tagged by someone as long as a footnote is deemed to be too far from a randomly chosen statement. Often this is done without reading full paragraphs or sometimes even entire sentences, and hardly ever does one actually attempt to look anything up. Anyone can point to a random fact and challenge it, but if it can't be motivated, it seems to become a meta-discussion about Wikipedia policy rather than genuine verifiability.

:::If you believe the article needs additional references, please specify them. Maybe not every last one, but at least a few more specific examples. Even if I've disagreed with some of the specifics, I have bolstered those that are somewhat ambiguous. I'm sure we can reach a compromise that both can be content with if we try to respect each other's opinions on this.

:::Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::Don’t worry, I don’t intend to oppose the article or cite endless policy, but there is still a need for referencing. Some hard facts need to be footnoted – for example, in Hand Held Weapons, the figures of longbows carried and recovered are both mentioned at the start of the para, but are cited by a footnote several sentences later that appears to be about how the weapons would have been used. These are 2 different fields and should be separately cited. The first line of the para after the table in crew is the same. A lot of information in the Deterioration section rests on a footnote that describes factors related to rediscovery, rather than deterioration. The detail on Abinett in the rediscovery section, the groups involved in the first part of modern rediscovery and the specifics of the two acts in the following paragraph. The details of the Vasa and the separate ideas to raise the wreck also rely on a footnote about the a different aspect in the Salvage section.

::::In other areas too many references are ascribed to one footnote. Number 51 is probably the worst example (3 people referencing a whole para in 1 footnote in the 1st French War), but there are lots of others. Where these references are describing several different things they should be separated accordingly.

::::Footnotes are also important to demonstrate that text isn’t OR. The naming section in construction is a good example. Where does the common assumption about the name come from? Who says it? The ref at the end of the sentence is about the naming in honour of the King and Queen and it leaves the earlier section looking like your own analysis of naming techniques (no offence).

::::These are just examples, but I think that they are important in an FA. Ranger Steve (talk) 17:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm going to have a closer look at the multiple ref notes, but as far as I recall, most of these are examples of merely bolstered refs, ie bonus citations where either could be removed without actually jeapordizing the verifiability of the text. In a few cases the text might be a merged summary of the information found in two references in the sense that where one source does not give full details, the other fills in (not as in trying to "merge" contradictions or disagreements). In those cases it's reasonable to refer scrupulous readers to more than one reference since the discussion is about straightforward chronology rather than differing scholarly opinions. I'll have to get back to this when I can check Rule and Loades directly.

:::::I've made a few tweaks to amend misunderstandings about referencing and I also split one of the three-author notes.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Rose&action=historysubmit&diff=345435409&oldid=345420960]

:::::A few detailed comments, though:

:::::*The naming issue has been clarified to indicate who claims what. That various authors have assumed that the ship was named after the ship's sister seems rather obvious to me since it's logical on the surface. However, it becomes very dubious if you put it into a historical context as Loades and Marsden did. I'm sure it's possible to trace the origins of the association to Mary Tudor into the literature, but it seems very difficult since no one ever really cites or explains the claim.

:::::*The first paragraph of "Salvage" is a cohesive narrative that describes the salvage along with minimal background info. To include mention of for example Vasa in this context is something I have trouble seeing as a "separate field". If read out of context, as in literally not reading the entire paragraph, it could tentatively be defined as a completely separate statement, but certainly not contentious. And since literally all of this is described in the reference cited, I have trouble seeing why anyone would have valid reason to question it.

:::::Peter ^Isotalo 15:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::"Military career" has been checked against Loades, Marsden and Rodger. Some tweaks have been made (like removing some bonus citations) and all references match very well now. Everything except Rule (I'll get my hands on it some time next week) also checks out. Peter ^Isotalo 06:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::Rule has been checked, and I was able to bolster a few things with Stirland with the help of old notes and Google Book previews. I think I've gone through just about every citation by now. Peter ^Isotalo 13:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

:Ok, after a read through, I have some more comments:

:*General

::*As I said, more footnotes.

:::*See comment above. Peter ^Isotalo 08:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::*On occasion a historian or researcher is quoted or referred to without an explanation of who he/she is (ie just a surname). It might look better if their full name and profession is clarified in the prose.

:::*Marsden is repeated only by surname a few times, but he's introduced in full before that. Coates, Watt and Barker are mentioned in a context of "modern historians" and are specified in the references so I thought that a full introduction would be cumbersome. And I frankly don't know the exact nature of their historic specialty. Is it really common practice to introduce scholars who don't have a major impact on the topic in full? Peter ^Isotalo 11:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*Marsden is referred to twice (in Crew and 1st French War merely as Marsden, before being referred to as Marine archaeologist Peter Marsden in the 2nd French War, It would be far better to have his identity established in the first usage of his name. Likewise Watt is introduced in a rather unmeaning way in the sentence “Peter Carew's claim of insubordination has been given support by Watt based on records of an epidemic…” I don’t really want to have to search the references to see who Watt is. A simple intro of archaeologist or historian before the name would clarify what each person’s speciality is when their opinion is being presented. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Ah. Didn't notice that the introduction came after the first mention. That, Watt, de Brossard and Barker have been fixed. Watt apparently passed away just recently and was more than just your average medical historian.[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article6995615.ece] Coates is proving difficult. As far as I recall, I was not able to get my hands on his article, but had to cite Stirland, who discusses it. Stirland is unavailable to me for at least a month so we'll see if I can actually dig it up in some other way. Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*Looks good! FWIW I think Watt's description definitely enhances the esection. Ranger Steve (talk) 15:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:*Background and history

::*Unless I've missed them, there are no references to either the Navy Royal or the Italian Wars, which I'd kind of expect in an article about an era like this.

:::*For the Italian wars, see below. Tudor navy is linked in the lead, though. As for "Navy Royal", I've not used the term since it's never referred to by modern naval historians as a separate entity. What kind of references are you looking for more specifically? Peter ^Isotalo 06:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::*The background of the French Wars seems a little odd. Are these official wars with articles? Or are they the phases of the Italian Wars?

:::*This is a matter of perspective. WP:MILHIST has a tendency to view wars as sorted into very strict hierarchies of conflicts. The problem is that the sources used here don't do that. They recognize the repeated wars between England and France as part of the larger European system of politics and and alliances, but they never call them the "Italian Wars". When I tried to link them while working on the article I discovered that the English intervention were just about completely missing from the articles, so the links merely looked confusing. So I'm not sure what to do since this is an article about a ship, not the series of wars it fought in. Peter ^Isotalo 06:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*Sorry, perhaps I should have said mentions of instead of references. The Italian Wars were the main wars taking place in Europe at the time of this ship’s career. At present the article describes three wars without providing a link to a more detailed article of any sort, and doesn’t really tell me the background of the events the ship was involved in. What was the first French war? Who declared it and why? The Italian Wars are the background articles and explain these events well. I imagine there must be loads of references linking the Mary Rose to the Wars, even if they are Italian War centric rather than Mary Rose centric. At present I’m afraid without linking to the background it’s like having an article on HMS Royal Oak without any mention of, or links to, the First and Second World Wars. I’d have added them myself but didn’t want to upset the prose too much.

:::::The Navy Royal is a commonly used term, [http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/history/historical-periods/1509-1660/ even within the Royal Navy] and again I think it needs mentioning. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::I actually meant references in the sense of mentions, so my bad. I could swear that those articles were had far less relevant coverage when I checked them back in July, but I suppose I didn't look hard enough. I hope the {{tl|main}} linkage I've added will do the trick.

::::::Both the sources I've used don't use the term "Navy Royal" in that way, as though it was an established organization and an official term. I'm sure there are lots of people using the term though it was merely the modern Royal Navy with an older name, but that's something that Loades and especially Rodger openly disagree with. Considering that, I'm not keen on using the term as lightly as the Royal Navy web article does. Can this be worked around with any alternatives?

::::::Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*My understanding is that Navy Royal was the term used at the time, whilst Tudor Navy is a historical descriptive. Would it be possible to reword instances of royal navy with 'Navy Royal' at least? My thinking is that even if not official, this is how the fleet was referred to at the time, and the Mary Rose was part of that fleet. The RN website is pretty clear that was the name used and is easily a RS. I see it in a lot of books on the period (and I'm surprised if the two authors you mention disagree with it). The Italian Wars links are good. In my mind I'd been thinking of prose additions which is why I didn't do it myself, but this works just as well. Ranger Steve (talk) 15:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*I'm hesitant about disqualifying the RN as a reliable source altogether, but it's obvious that an online historical introduction shouldn't be ranked as the equal of two major works written by established naval historians. I don't know how the term "Navy Royal" is viewed by British naval historians in general, but since both the references used for the historical background use it quite hesitantly, I tried to include the term with a kind of caveat. Lemme know what you think. Peter ^Isotalo 11:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::*Better, but I'm surprised you wouldn't consider the RN as reliable. You do seem to be placing an awful lot of emphasis on specific sources. For sections like the Historical Background there really is no harm in expanding your research to include other sources that aren't specifically focussed on the Mary Rose (but that mention it in it's proper context). Ranger Steve (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

::*The background to the Battle of the Solent makes it seem as if the aim was to land on the Isle of Wight, but as I understand it, the landings were a reaction to the events of the sea battle. Can this be reworded?

:::*Attacking the Isle of Wight was used as a method to lure the English fleet out to fight according to Rodger, but the intention all along seems to have to land troops. I'm a bit stumped on how to reword since it looks fairly clear to me. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Peter ^Isotalo 14:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*I've been doing some reading and the French strategy seems to be rather a matter of opinion! What I meant was that I didn't think their strategy was necessarily to land on the IoW, but somewhere in the mainland. The decision to land on the Isle was, as you say, an effort to force the English hand rather than their plan. Anyway, I've tried to removed any ambiguity by piping the link and removing the brackets section. What do you think? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Quite clear. That should solve it.Peter ^Isotalo 13:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

::*One of the armament inventories is listed as 1546. Is this a typo or a post sinking inventory (in which case it might be worth stating in the prose)?

:::*I think I've solved it with a parenthesis and two footnotes. Explaining it in prose seems like it would be going off topic, especially since Anthony Roll is a separate and fully-developed article. Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*I'm blind, it is of course clarified in the paragraph before the table (in Bronze and Iron Guns). Many apologies! Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:*Raising

::*It doesn't really explain anywhere in the article why it was decided to raise the ship. It was a fairly massive undertaking and I'm sure it wasn't a decision made lightly. I believe there was a fair amount of discussion about it at the time, and it might be helpful to explain to the reader why what is essentially a total wreck was raised from the seabed.

:::*The reason for raising the ship is in the paragraph of "Survey and excavation", no? Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*Er… no. Excavation and raising are two different things. What the section needs is a mention of why it was felt the ship should be raised at such enormous effort. The line “Plans for raising, conserving and preparing the hull for public display were now for the first time discussed” doesn’t really delve that far into it. There were very important considerations to be made and such a raising had never been attempted before. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Considering the historical significance and unique preservation status of the vessel it seems to be rather self-explanatory to me. What important considerations, other than purely technical aspects, are you thinking of? Ethics of scholarship? The dynamics of historical presentation to the general public? Museum practices? Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*What I mean is that raising a wreck is a very uncommon activity, and I don't think the reasons for it are obvious. As I said, excavation and salvage are two different things and the logic behind deciding to raise this wreck isn't obvious - the Vasa is a bit more because it's complete, whilst the Mary Rose is far from recognisable to most people. Even before considering the mechanics of how they would do it, the huge financial and technical considerations had to be considered when deciding whether or not to raise it. Its no small beer and the Mary Rose Trust surely didn't just think "hey, why don't we raise it as well?" A very very important aspect of the ship's history is only explained in one line and I think it needs more explanation. There is some detail [http://www.maryrose.org/project/raise1.htm here] that makes a starting point. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*The intention, if not the practical decision, to raise the ship was not something that appeared in 1978. It had been the goal all along (it's mentioned in conjunction with the founding of the MR Committeee) and the first phases of survey and excavation were in large part a way to probe how realistic that goal was. I think this a matter of lack of clarity in the text more than lack of information, and I've tried to reword it to reflect this a bit. It's pretty much exactly what Dobbs is writing in the linked paper, while the rest is really just about the technical details. Peter ^Isotalo 18:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

::*On that subject, how much did it cost, not only to raise it, but to house it permanently in Portsmouth and to treat it?

:::*Absolutely no idea. I know that the salvage operation cost £2.8 million. But the total sum of all the expenses is a figure I've never seen in any source. Overall, I haven't seen too many budget statements overall. Peter ^Isotalo 06:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*I think this is important. HLF has so far donated 7 million or something and has recently pledged another 15. These are details I would expect in an FA. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Trying to work up sums of anything will be difficult without stumbling dangerously close to original reasearch, so I suppose individual examples will be more appropriate. I'll see what figures I can actually find. Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*I imagine a grand total would be impossible to ascertain, but some mentions, particularly the bid for the new museum would look good in the appropriate sections. Ranger Steve (talk) 15:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

::*Related to that, I believe there has been some controversy about the huge amount of money that has been thrown at the project. If RSs can be found I think this needs to be incorporated.

:::*Controversy? In a private project? Never seen even a hint of it, so I wouldn't know where to look. Peter ^Isotalo 06:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*A good look doesn't find much I admit, but there is at least controversy about the decision to raise the wreck, and possibly display the bodies recovered. That should be incorporated at least. Ranger Steve (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*I've read a bit about the fact that hte human remains have been a sensitive issue, but very little. Certainly no detailed statements. The controversies about raising the wreck I'm unfamiliar with, though. Are you talking about the modern perspective of preferably not raising anything from an underwater environment at all or something that was discussed in the late 70s and early 80s? I hope we're not moving towards a "Controversy" section, btw. :-) Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*No, I wouldn’t recommend a controversy section, but a line or two in the appropriate areas. Per Wikipedia:Featured article criteria 1b. Perhaps controversy is the wrong word about the raising, but there has to be some mention of why the ship was raised and how a fairly major decision was made. I can’t believe everyone though it was a brilliant idea, “lets just do it” without at least considering the fact it was disturbing a grave, closing a section of the Solent for weeks and raising the funds. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*I suppose there might have been complaints, but I still can't recall even seeing hints of this anywhere. So the question is, where exactly are we supposed to look for references of dichord? Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*Added summaries of disagreement on salvage procedure and display location mentioned in Childs, including a hint of grumbling about the cost. Peter ^Isotalo 14:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::*I'd done some reading the last few days and was going to say that there does seem to be so little about it (and I still can't find where I'd read about it) that it wouldn't be neccesary! That said the bit you've added is interesting! Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

::*On the positive side, I think this is one of the most expensive and ambitious archaeological projects ever isn't it (or at least maritime archaeology)? Again, if it can be I think this needs incorporating.

:::*The status as one of the biggest archaeological projects ever is actually in the lead, but I added it to "Archaeology" as well. Dunno if it requires a lengthier explanation, but I would imagine that anyone who reads about the details has a good idea that it wasn't a minor undertaking. Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*I saw it was in the lead, but not developed in the main text. I’m afraid hard refs are needed for such details. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::*How about the newly added section, though? Doesn't that cover the most relevant aspects of the scope of the project? Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::*Sorry, probably being blind again. Can you point me to the section? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*Newly edited section, rather. The first paragraph in "Archaeology". Peter ^Isotalo 13:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::*Ah that bit. Yeah, again these are extraordinary, challengeable claims that I think warrant specific cites. The reader should not be expected to rely on a much later cite that references a different claim. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::*It's now separately cited. Peter ^Isotalo 18:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

::*One of the external links points to an article about a 2003 discovery. Can this be incorporated as well?

:::*Added a section.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Rose&diff=prev&oldid=344799026] Peter ^Isotalo 13:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*Looks good Ranger Steve (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::*I have nagging concerns about the wording of this sentence: "The excavation of the Mary Rose wrecksite proved that it was possible to achieve the same level of exactness in underwater excavations as on land" Did it really do that? It is largely impossible to achieve the same level of exactness in maritime archaeology as on land. This is subjective of course; different land environments allow for different levels of exactness (the difference between excavating a bone in two different soil types for instance), but it is pretty difficult to excavate anything underwater in situ in the same manner as on dry land. I'd like to see a few more independent refs for this sentence, or a bit of a rewording perhaps.

:::*I'm not an archaeologist and can't vouch for Marsden claim in full so I tried a rewording. However, Marsden discusses that the MR project managed to record stratigraphy in detail and that it was done layer by layer, something that was apparently thought impossible or at least very difficult at the time. Peter ^Isotalo 11:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::*Think it's fine. Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:I might come up with some more things later as I review it some more. Otherwise, really really good work Peter. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

::One more query - did the ship definitely heel to port when she sank? There are a lot of accounts that say Starboard ([http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/uk/gallery/2008/jan/24/1/GD5979747@UNSPECIFIED---OCTOBER-9610.jpg a la this painting])? Ranger Steve (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Fixed. Merely confused sides in describing the sinking (though not deterioration and whathaveyou). Peter ^Isotalo 13:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

|2=Comments by Ranger Steve}}

Comment:

:Contents:

:*The 2nd (excavation) and 3rd paragraph (ship history) in the lead should switch places to conform to the temporal sequence.

::*The lead isn't a chronological account of the ship's history and strays from that even in the first paragraph. The second paragraph is where it is because the archaeological aspects of the ship are more relevant to its modern status than its military history. The Mary Rose is well known because it was excavated, salvaged and put on display, not because of its military career. Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:*The lead distinguishes somewhat artificially between gunports and the ability to fire a broadside, but in reality both are closely interconnected: A broadside was fired through gunports (cannon on the decks was mainly anti-personnel).

::*Have you read what Rodger has to say about this? Broadsides were fired through gunports, but broadsides weren't actually invented until well after the Mary Rose sank. Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::So why does the article claim that the Mary Rose fired broadsides, if they were not invented yet? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

::::I clarified that in the lead. The technical ability existed, but as far as I've understood it there are no indications that the tactical application existed at that time. Peter ^Isotalo 08:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

:*IMO the section on "display" and "archaeology" should switch places so that archaeology can immediately follow on "modern rediscovery" and salvage.

::*Good point; switched places. Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:Format:

:*"Illustration from a treatise on salvaging from 1734": there is a near-contemporary one to the Mary Rose at Drydock#Renaissance Europe. I can vouch for its authenticity, I myself uploaded the pic and wrote the comment next to it years ago.

:*Use the Harvard citation system for easy navigation between footnotes and bibliography, see e.g. List of Roman domes

:*Please split longer paragraphs to make the whole text more readable. As a rule, a paragraph should not run longer than 6-8 lines.

:*Generally, the article needs more inline-citations. Cf. FA Byzantine navy which is pretty scrupulous about that. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

::Note that using the "Harvard citation system" Gun Powder Ma mentions is not a requirement for featured articles. Ucucha 16:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Also I'm not sure if there's a rule about 6-8 line paragraphs, which is fairly unfeasible in a lot of instances (happy to be proved wrong though). Ranger Steve (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:::I split a few paragraphs. It's difficult to interpret "6-8 lines", though, since it is entirely dependent on resolution of individual screen. The illustration is very nice, but doesn't seem to be relevant to this article. It looks to me like the ship in that picture is being serviced rather than salvaged. For comment about adding more footnotes, see my reply to Steve Ranger above. Peter ^Isotalo 08:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Noticed I forgot to comment the request for Harvard templates. I'm personally not a big fan of templates since they add a lot of dinkiness that's unfriendly to newbies and those who aren't code-savvy. And I believe they tend to make citation less flexible without really saving anyone much time.

:::Peter ^Isotalo 23:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment. I only would like to point to a little problem in "Contemporary accounts": "Lord High Admiral John Russell" cannot be the correct one, as John Russell, 1st Earl of Bedford served from 1540–1542 (see e.g. List of Lords High Admirals and First Lords of the Admiralty). John Dudley, Viscount Lisle was in office and on place when the Mary Rose sank, and wrote letters to William Paget (together with Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk and William Paulet) from the scene. So, it is most unlikely that John Russell wrote the letter. Otherwise, Russell was not Lord Admiral at that time or any time later. For the above: David Loades: John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland 1504–1553, Clarendon Press, 1996, {{ISBN|0198201931}}, pp. 70–71. Buchraeumer (talk) 12:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:Good thing you caught it. It's my mistake, though, not Marsden's. He actually cites Loades, though from a different, more recent work, Letters from the Mary Rose (2002), written together with Knigthon. I obviously forgot to check the exact date when John Russel was Lord High Admiral and merely inserted the title in order to explain a bit about his role. I've solved the problem for now by adding a "former".[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Rose&action=historysubmit&diff=344812152&oldid=344799026]

:Peter ^Isotalo 13:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::Fine then, problem resolved! Buchraeumer (talk) 19:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support This is an outstanding article which makes great use of the available sources and photos. My only comments are that the 'See also' section should be integrated into the article, and the external links could be trimmed. Nick-D (talk) 05:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• :I removed some links, so it's down to seven. If it's not too much of a burden, though, I'd really like to keep "See also"-links. Very few readers will go through the article thoroughly enough to catch all those links, and working both Batavia in Kronan would be piling on even more info on an already gigantic article. Peter ^Isotalo 14:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• ::Vasa is linked in the article's prose so doesn't need to be in the see also section and, to be frank, I don't see the relevance of the other two ships other that they're from the same era and artifacts have been recovered from them Nick-D (talk) 06:34, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
• :::The Vasa Museum and the Mary Rose Trust are sister organizations with a long history of cooperation. These ships are also the only two comparable projects of their kind. What other (pre-modern) wrecks have attracted as much interest from scholars and the general public?
• :::I've read many suggestions that links in the articles shouldn't be repeated in the "See also"-section, but I've never quite seen the point (except for huge link farms). A minimum of repetition is never bad, especially since just about no one ever reads through entire articles of this size. As for Batavia and Kronan, they're both pretty well-known shipwrecks which have been excavated by archaeologists, which makes them highly relevant. We could exchange them for La Belle (ship) or other articles that are better developed (or more varied). I could add short explanatory notes for the ships if the reason for their inclusion isn't clear enough. Peter ^Isotalo 16:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Quick Comment Why have a redlink to "serpentines", but not to any of the other types of guns in the same sentence? I'm not saying that the redlinks are bad, but you should at least be consistent in their use... Bluap (talk) 10:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• :I linked it because I thought it unlikely that the others would have their own articles. When I think about it, not even serpentine would really be worth a separate article due to the difficulty in establishing its definition with any great accuracy. So for consistency's sake, I've delinked that too.
• :And thanks for the copyedit. It improved the flow of the text quite a bit. Peter ^Isotalo 14:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (I made one small format tweak to one website ref) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Thanks for the check-up! Peter ^Isotalo 11:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note The OTRS permission for a few more donated images from the Mary Rose Trust just went through and have been added to the article. Peter ^Isotalo 14:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

:Comments 1) The phrase "four decades of intermittent war" (in the final paragraph of the lede) should probably be a link somewhere. 2) The sentence "All three had gone to war 1508 with the formation of the League of Cambrai, first against the Republic of Venice but the conflict eventually turned against France." doesn't make sense to me, and should be rewritten. Bluap (talk) 11:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

::1) All conflicts are part of the Italian Wars but don't make up a clear delineated group among these (that I know of). They have Mary Rose and Henry VIII in common, though.

::2) Yeah, somewhat confused; now rewritten.

::Peter ^Isotalo 16:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support Comments - The issues below are not significant enough to stop promotion, but are worth looking at. A mammoth article in as much depth as I like :) I'll begin a readthrough now and jot any notes below. Feel free to revert any prose changes I make which inadvertently change meaning. Visiting the Mary Rose was one of the most interesting tourism things I did in the UK. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::The marriage alliance between Anne of Brittany and Charles VIII of France in 1491, and his successor Louis XII in 1499, confronted England with a worsened strategic position on its southern flank. - "confronted" is an odd choice of verb - just "left England with a....?

::I'm wondering whether it'd be better to italicise the four main decks of the ship in para 2 of the Design section (names as names principle in WP:MOS on italics (?)) - not a deal-breaker, just a thought.

::Today only about 40% of the original structure of the ship remains - sounds odd. WAsn't it all brought up? Does this mean that 40% was all that was remaining when it was salvaged?

All good :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

:Didn't even have time to say I'd fixed it... Your copyedit tweaks all looked good to me. Thanks for the suggestion and the support! And now that you mention it, it would be a bit odd if I didn't to Portsmouth myself eventually, considering how much work I've spent on the topic... Peter ^Isotalo 13:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::As I said, it's really cool..made a change from cathedrals and castles.... :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Support. This is outstanding, well researched, and nicely done. A few minor prose issues that should be dealt with.

• In the analysis of the crew, and elsewhere, you've mixed verb tenses. 179 individuals were found...There are no written records (no extant written records)... Among the men who died on the ship there are likely to have been some who had practised...

the fleet returned to Southampton in June where they (it? is fleet plural or singular....? you use "it" in the next sentence) were visited by King Henry.

The Breton flagship Cordelière put up a fight and was boarded by the 1,000-ton Regent. by the crew of the Regent? You've spelt ton as tonne earlier. 180 (should be written out, see MOS) English crew members saved themselves by throwing themselves into the sea and only a handful of Bretons survived to be captured.

Howard himself managed to reach the ship of French admiral Prégent de Bidoux and lead a small party ...

It left him at the mercy of the soldiers aboard the galley who instantly killed him. Needs comma before who. This is a problem throughout.

A document written by Thomas Cromwell written in 1536

What this repair consisted of, though, is not known, nor how large it was The nature or extent of this repair is unknown.

Many authors, including the project leader for the raising of the Mary Rose Margaret Rule, have assumed that it meant a complete rebuilding from clinker planking to carvel planking... Many experts, including Margaret Rule, the project leader for the raising of the Mary Rose, have assumed that it meant...

England's position had become increasingly isolated due to Henry's complicated marriage affairs and his high-handed dissolution of the monasteries angered the Pope and Catholic rulers all over Europe. henry's complicated marital situation and his high-handed dissolution of the monasteries angered the Pope and Catholic rulers throughout Europe, which increased England's diplomatic isolation. ?

The estimates of the size of the fleet vary considerably.. varied.

For those that were not injured or killed outright by moving objects, there was little time to reach safety, especially for those who were manning the guns on the main deck or fetching ammunition and supplies in the hold. Awkward

Several accounts of the sinking have been preserved that describe the incident. The only contemporary account is the testimony of a surviving Flemish crewman written down.. These seems to contradict... Several accounts... Of these, only the contemporary testimony of a surviving Flemish crewman ....

And so on. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

:Thank you for the support! I've gone through the examples here and corrected all of them with the exception of the boarding. Saying that "USS Foo was boarded by HMS Bar" is standard phrasing when writing about naval history. And even to those who haven't encountered it before, it will be pretty obvious that the crew is doing the boarding.

:I'll keep on the lookout for other prose errors over the next few days.

:Peter ^Isotalo 17:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.