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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Green Bay Packers retired numbers/archive1

:The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 27 September 2018 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers/archive1&diff=861236120&oldid=860754755].

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=[[List of Green Bay Packers retired numbers]]=

{{la|List of Green Bay Packers retired numbers}}

{{Wikipedia:Featured list tools|1=List of Green Bay Packers retired numbers}}

:Nominator(s): « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Saved this article from deletion, took it to WP:DYK, and now I think it is ready for WP:FLC. Please bear with me, this is my first nomination in a long time, so if I missed something simple, I apologize. Thanks for taking the time to review. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

:Note: I believe in QPQ at FLC. I will review 3 noms for every one I nominate (1, 2, 3). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 00:40, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

{{hidden/FC|headerstyle=background:#ccf;|contentstyle=border:1px #ccf solid; padding:10px;|header=Resolved comments from TompaDompa (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)|content=*The WP:LEAD is very long – too long for a lead section. The details about the players whose numbers were retired should be moved to the body, and a briefer summary should be added to the lead instead.

  • I trimmed the lead [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&type=revision&diff=854470995&oldid=854469348&diffmode=source diff]. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I still think the lead is too long compared to the length of the entire page. See for instance List of highest-grossing films, which is much longer yet has a shorter WP:LEAD. I'd suggest adding a "History" section (or similar) to the body. TompaDompa (talk) 19:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I added a history section per your recommendation. Good idea, I like it better this way. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I haven't done a proper source check, but the WP:LEAD contains a fairly large number of sentences that are not followed by an inline citation. Do the references generally verify all the sentences following the last citation, or are there unsourced statements?
  • Yes they do. The only sentences that lack a source are the last few sentences of the first paragraph, explaining that teams retire numbers. The sentences, in my opinion, are backed up by the substance of the list and the sources that show the Packers retire numbers. Let me know what you think. I haven't been able to find a source that generically says teams retire numbers. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • In the alt text that reads "A photo of Reggie White and other unknown Packers players with former president Bill Clinton", I would remove the word "unknown". The players are presumably not unknown even if they haven't been identified in this particular photograph, and their identities aren't relevant in this context anyway.
  • I removed it. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I would place the photos of the players to the right of the table, rather than below it.
  • I have no strong feelings about this, but here is what it looks like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&oldid=854469304]. Using thumbnails, it creates a ton of white space. I also heard that putting the photos above or below makes for easier readability depending on screen size (i.e. gives more room for the table). Let me know what you think. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • That version is obviously less than ideal, but its possible to specify the height to eliminate the problem. Come to think of it, maybe it would be best to make a new column in the table so that the pictures are aligned with the corresponding entry. TompaDompa (talk) 19:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I moved them into the table per your suggestion. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • [http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/99326524.html The link in reference 22] (as of my writing this) is defunct. The intended link seems to be [http://archive.jsonline.com/packerinsider/99326524.html this one].
  • It worked for me, but I replaced it with your version, which also works for me. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • My main issue: as of right now, I don't think this passes WP:FLCR 3(b). Specifically, I think this could "reasonably be included as part of a related article".
  • Note that this article was nominated for deletion for that very same reason and the ultimate outcome was to keep it. I feel like this discussion comes up a lot with shorter lists. In my opinion, this article provides a lot more information than what would be necessary for a larger, summary article (such as Green Bay Packers or History of the Green Bay Packers). If someone added this much info to those articles, I would cut it down significantly per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Hope that helps, thanks for the review. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I saw the AfD and gave the arguments presented a cursory read-through. After a second, more thorough read-through I stand by my assessment that the list currently does not meet WP:FLCR 3(b). I agree that this level of detail would be excessive for a larger article, but the list reasonably could be included in one (which is not to say that it should, just as the result of the AfD wasn't "keep" but "no consensus"). In other words, trimming and merging would be a reasonable option right now. What I feel is missing is information that could not reasonably be included in a larger article and the loss of which would be clearly detrimental to the reader's understanding of the topic. The "why" would almost certainly fit that bill, but I fear that it might be difficult to source. TompaDompa (talk) 19:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I followed you until your last two sentences. What do you feel is missing from this article? I believe that it is a reasonable stand-alone list that will continue to grow and there is plenty of in-depth info that is appropriate only for this article, and not a larger one if this list were merged. Note that this list is already in the Green Bay Packers article, just with a whole lot less info. The table is not the only part of a list, a list in my opinion includes the entire article. Thus, the entirety of this article could not be reasonably merged into Green Bay Packers per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, thus a separate article is appropriate. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • The list includes both the table and the text, yes. In this case, however, the text doesn't add much that both (a) isn't in the table already and (b) enhances the reader's understanding of the subject. The main thing in the text that satisfies both of those criteria is the Future additions section, which I will say that I really like. The table also adds only the "honors and awards" column to the condensed one on Green Bay Packers#Retired numbers (well, besides the photos and references). So in essence List of Green Bay Packers retired numbers has one additional paragraph of quality content compared to Green Bay Packers#Retired numbers, and I don't think that's enough for a WP:Featured list. An additional paragraph or two of quality content would do wonders for the list and would resolve this issue entirely in my eyes, as would the reasons why these particular players had their numbers retired (i.e. the motivation/rationale for it, if there is an official one like there is for the Nobel Prizes). TompaDompa (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Interesting. Let me see what I can do. It will probably be a few days, fyi. Thanks for the comments. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 00:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • {{U|TompaDompa}} let me know if I have addressed your comment sufficiently [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&type=revision&diff=854910065&oldid=854498060&diffmode=source diff]. Let me know if you have any other concerns. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • That will suffice, yes. TompaDompa (talk) 17:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

If and when these issues have been addressed, I'll do a more thorough review. TompaDompa (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Some things needing copyediting:

  • "No." should use the {{tl|abbr}} template per MOS:NUMERO. One of the instances also has a lowercase "n" which should be changed to uppercase.
  • Added to all instances of "No." « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • "Nitschke, who with Bart Starr, was a five-time NFL Champion and two-time Super Bowl winner under coach Vince Lombardi and anchored the Packers defense for 15 seasons." is an anacoluthon.
  • Reworded. Just removed the part about Bart Starr. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • "losing the second.His number" – missing space after period.
  • Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • "retiremenet" – typo.
  • Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Use "died" rather than "passed away" per MOS:EUPHEMISM.
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

TompaDompa (talk) 17:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

:Thanks again {{U|TompaDompa}} for the review! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)}}

Support Great job! TompaDompa (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

{{hidden/FC|headerstyle=background:#ccf;|contentstyle=border:1px #ccf solid; padding:10px;|header=Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 22 September 2018 (UTC)|content=Comments, first though, thanks for your QPQ approach, and especially such a generous one.

  • " in 1919, over 1,600 " never liked those easter egg links to seasons (especially when this is the only one I think), and "more than" rather than "over".
  • "Of those 30 Hall of Famers," no need to repeat "Hall of Famers".
  • "30 Hall of Famers, only six " 30/6 or "thirty/six" per MOSNUM.
  • And why "only"?
  • Shouldn't the link used for "retire uniform numbers" be in the previous sentence when the phrase ("uniform numbers officially retired") is first used?
  • "the criteria and necessity of " missing "for" after "criteria".
  • "so is usually left up to each team" usually?
  • "unofficial recognition occurred in 1952" probably "took place", and any details on this?
  • "Over 16 season, " missing an s.
  • Ref should be Refs.
  • Year ranges need whole years now (per MOS).
  • "first-team All-Pro " is mentioned in the lead and the table a few times but not linked nor explained.
  • Chicago Tribune is a work so should be italicised.
  • As is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
  • Most of the works/publishers are linked, but not all, be consistent.
  • The Guardian is a work too.

That's all I have on that quick run through. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

  • P.S. Is it also worth mentioning that Reggie White had his number at the Philadelphia Eagles retired as well as for the Packers? Seems notable enough seeing as he's the only person in NFL history to have such an honor...? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

:*Thanks for the review {{U|The Rambling Man}}! I believe I have addressed all of your comments [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&type=revision&diff=859124139&oldid=855325812&diffmode=source here]. Let me know if there is anything else. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

:*I forgot to mention, regarding Reggie White, I cannot find a definitive source that says "first" or "only" to have his number retired by two teams. I added some text noting that his college and the Eagles retired his number. If you notice a source though that says this, I can add it. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:36, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

::*{{U|The Rambling Man}}, I was finally able to find a source for the statement about being retired by multiple NFL teams. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&type=revision&diff=859975902&oldid=859352117&diffmode=source here] for my changes to the article. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 17 September 2018 (UTC)}}

  • Support the first of a few of these I hope... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Comments
  • "the criteria for and necessity of doing so is left up to each team" => "the criteria for and necessity of doing so are left up to each team"
  • "His number was retired by coach Gene Ronzani during a brief ceremony in a game against the New York Yanks" - was the ceremony literally during the game?
  • Ice Bowl should be in quotation marks, not italics
  • "Nitschke's number was retired in 1983 in a small ceremony during a game against the Chicago Bears" - as above - was it literally "during" the game?
  • "White, who was known as the Minister of Defense" - nickname should be in quote marks, not italics
  • Think that's it from me! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:48, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

:*Thanks {{U|ChrisTheDude}}. I believe I have addressed all your comments [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Green_Bay_Packers_retired_numbers&type=revision&diff=859352117&oldid=859124139&diffmode=source here]. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 13:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

::Nice one - support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Source review passed (I also archived all references); promoting. --PresN 01:51, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

{{FLCClosed|promoted}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.