Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Hitler50i.jpg

:The following discussion is an archived inquiry of the possible unfree image below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: No Consensus, leaning Keep. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 00:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Hitler50i.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Hitler50i.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Hitler50i.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Hitler50i.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Hitler50i.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• Obviously the CC license doesn't apply. Now the pd one. The 100 year one doesnt apply because Heinrich Hoffmann took the photo apparently, and he died in 1957 according to his article. {{Tl|PD-US}} doesn't apply because the photo was taken in 1939 and for it to be in the public domain in Germany, I think the Life+70 mentioned here for Germany is pertinent. Rockfang (talk) 02:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• keep under {{tl|PD-HHOFFMANN}}. --dab (𒁳) 13:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:*Because of the disclaimer: "Note this does not apply to Heinrich Hoffmann items not in the US national archives, it must say the item is 'Use Restrictions: unrestricted', always list the source of the image," on the template you linked, do you have any proof this is a NARA image? Or in the US national archives in some other way?--Rockfang (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• nope. How many of the images tagged with {{tl|PD-HHOFFMANN}} have included proof that they are from NARA? This image would never have ended up here if it had been so tagged from the beginning. Which way does the burden of proof go? I am in favour of keeping obviously encyclopedic image for which a reasonable case that they are PD can be made. There will be ample time to delete them as soon as somebody submits proof that they are not. --dab (𒁳) 20:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:::I think the burden of proof should be on someone wanting to keep a possibly public domain image. Along the same lines as article text like at WP:BURDEN.--Rockfang (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

::::that's certainly one school of thought, but it does not appear to be the prevailing one on Wikipedia. Perhaps you should IfD all 17 {{tl|PD-HHOFFMANN}} images to get more input on this and to motivate people to search for proof that NARA has each one. Because this particular image was published by Hoffmann in 1939 in a book, I think it highly unlikely that the United States Army did not seize a copy of the book when it seized the rest of Hoffmann's archives. --dab (𒁳) 21:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:::::I think I'll hold off on IfDing any yet. At least until this discussion ends. But I do understand that getting more input would be a good thing. I've asked for that here.--Rockfang (talk) 21:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

::It's taken me a bit of thinking, but {{tl|PD-HHOFFMANN}} seems valid. The works were confiscated under criminal law ("Nazi profiteering" is how the Heinrich Hoffmann article puts it), and we have a U.S. court case (Price v. United States, which should really have an article) which says the copyrights were confiscated as well. As such, the copyrights were not restored under the Uruguay Round Agreement Act, because they would have been restored in favour of a foreign government, 17 U.S.C. §104A(a)(2).

::As for checking that all of the Hoffmann images are actually in NARA, that seems like copyright paranoia to me. Surely the scans that circulate on the web are more than likely to have originated in NARA. Are there any (scanned) Hoffmann images around that don't have a Nazi theme? Come to think of it, how do we know that any given image is by Hoffmann in the first place?! If we worry too much about such matters, we will have less time and attention available for more obvious copyright violations, IMHO. Physchim62 (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:::Actually, I've found the text of [http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C93/93-02564.CV0.wpd.pdf Price v. United States] and it doesn't explicitly deal with copyright. On the other hand, it does mention that the United States Attorney General took over "all rights" in the photos under the Trading with the Enemy Act on June 25, 1951 (Vesting Order 17952, 16 FR 6162). Commons seems happy to concede that the German copyright is administered by the German government. Physchim62 (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by {{admin|Melesse}} AnomieBOT⚡ 03:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Tinsel-1.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Tinsel-1.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Tinsel-1.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Tinsel-1.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Tinsel-1.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• No source or details at all, high quality pic, looks like a clear copyright violation to me. Off2riorob (talk) 03:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I've tagged the image as not having a license and source.--Rockfang (talk) 03:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: Withdrawn by Nominator. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 00:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz latrines.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Auschwitz latrines.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Auschwitz latrines.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz latrines.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz latrines.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• Uploaded by a user with very few edits. Not clear that it's genuine. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 07:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I took the picture myself the other day - It is genuine and definitely my own work - as is the one "washrooms" that I have uploaded.

:Can you show us any evidence of that? I hate to question you, but you don't have many edits and this is an important historical article, so we have to know we're getting it right. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 08:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

::[http://www.globaldreamers.org/holocaust/wesley/images/birkbar6.jpg This] is an image of the Auschwitz latrines. That doesn't mean yours also isn't genuine, but they look quite different, so it means we need some extra way to evaluate yours. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 09:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

That is Birkenau - The photo I took is inside one of the barracks at Auschwitz 1 - It doesn't matter if you decide to remove them. I took the photos for my own records, I just though it would help to enrich the page on the camp for other visitors and short of showing you the stamp in my passport saying that I flew into Krakow I don't know how I could prove the pictures are genuine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfmonkey (talk • contribs) 09:56, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:[http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitzscrapbook/Photos/Gallery12/Photo3.html Here] is another image of the latrines at Auschwitz. This says Birkenau, which is the name for Auschwitz II, though people don't use the terms precisely anymore. It's likely that there were latrines that looked different, so I'm not ruling yours out, and you're right—it would enrich the page to have them—but we need to find some way of determining that they're genuine, both for the sake of accuracy, and for the image policies. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 10:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

::Hang on, I've found an image of the latrines in Auschwitz I that looks like one of your images. See [http://www.remember.org/then-and-now/images/toilets-potrz-p.jpg]. I have to go offline now, but I'll deal with this when I get back on. I'm very sorry for the questioning, and hope you can understand the need for it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 10:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

:::I've struck through this, as other images and information I've found online indicate it's genuine. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 03:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I've reinstated the pictures...Can you lift the restrictions on these please.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfmonkey (talk • contribs) 18:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: Withdrawn by Nominator. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 00:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz washroom.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Auschwitz washroom.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Auschwitz washroom.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz washroom.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Auschwitz washroom.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• See above. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 09:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by {{admin|Fastily}} AnomieBOT⚡ 01:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Charade 1.JPG}} ([{{fullurl:File:Charade 1.JPG|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Charade 1.JPG}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Charade 1.JPG}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Charade 1.JPG}}}}}} logs]).

• Probable copyvio. J Milburn (talk) 17:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by {{admin|Fastily}} AnomieBOT⚡ 01:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Charade 2.JPG}} ([{{fullurl:File:Charade 2.JPG|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Charade 2.JPG}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Charade 2.JPG}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Charade 2.JPG}}}}}} logs]).

• Probable copyvio. J Milburn (talk) 17:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by {{admin|Fastily}} AnomieBOT⚡ 01:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Locations of Srebrenica Mass Graves.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Locations of Srebrenica Mass Graves.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Locations of Srebrenica Mass Graves.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Locations of Srebrenica Mass Graves.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Locations of Srebrenica Mass Graves.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• Uploader claims to have created the image "entirely" by himself, though the map seems to produced by a professional cartographer, and the uploader has a history of copyright violations. I asked him to confirm whether he did indeed create the map, but he ignored the request (and has since been blocked indefinitely for an unrelated matter). Psychonaut (talk) 17:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by {{admin|Melesse}} AnomieBOT⚡ 18:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Jason-bay mets.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Jason-bay mets.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Jason-bay mets.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Jason-bay mets.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Jason-bay mets.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• No evidence of permission. Mm40 (talk) 19:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I've tagged the image as not having a source and license.--Rockfang (talk) 19:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: No Consensus, leaning Keep. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 00:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

::File:{{ucfirst:Kubadabad.jpg}} ([{{fullurl:File:Kubadabad.jpg|action=delete&wpReason={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 January 24#File:Kubadabad.jpg}}}} delete] | talk | [{{fullurl:File:{{ucfirst:Kubadabad.jpg}}|action=history}} history] | [{{fullurl:Special:Log|page={{urlencode:File:{{ucfirst:Kubadabad.jpg}}}}}} logs]).

• The WMF PD-Art policy covers only strictly 2D works of art. Painting frames, for instance, have been excluded. Therefore, this object being 3D, PD-Art cannot be used and we need to know who the photographer is, for he holds copyright over the picture. This picture has been moved to Commons and deleted there for this reason. Eusebius (talk) 08:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. The image in question is on a tile, but the image is in 2D. It is no more 3D than a painting on a canvas (which is in three dimensions). This is a 2D work of art. That it has deteriorated over time is irrelevant. I'm open to more discussion though. Furthermore, it was removed from the Commons because it was still copyrighted in its country of origin, not because it was 3D. It is past copyright protections in the US, no matter which standard in the U.S. you choose. The U.S. does not recognize indefinite copyrights. — BQZip01 — ^talk 01:19, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

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