. -- Tavix (talk) 21:26, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = Pahari languages }} → :Northern Indo-Aryan languages (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pahari_languages&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2018-01-26&end=2018-02-24&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Pahari_languages stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Pahari languages|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Pahari languages closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Pahari languages|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Pahari languages closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Pahari languages|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Pahari languages closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
Should, per WP:PLURALPT, redirect to Pahari language (or wherever that gets merged to, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pahari language). Batternut (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. The plural is only used for the language group (the current target) and never for any of the individual languages listed on the dab (the proposed target). Plural redirects from language names, whenever they exist, almost never go to the same place as the singular (see English languages, Hindi languages, Arabic languages...). – Uanfala (talk) 15:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
::The vast majority of X languages articles follow PLURALPT "For the rare articles that are in the plural ... there should normally be a redirect from the singular form", eg Sino-Tibetan, Italic, Koreanic, Tyrsenian, Semitic, I could go on...{{pb}}Most X language articles do not have a X languages redirect, although a few do, eg Malagasy, Lombard.{{pb}}The few X language articles where group articles at X languages exist, the X language articles are always the "proper" language, as in Hani languages, Kunama languages, Spanish languages, likewise English, Hindi, Arabic as you mention.{{pb}}There is no "proper" Pahari language exemplifying the group, because there is no such linguistic group. Pahari is applied to a wide range of languages - as you know, it just means "hill people". It is like having a disambiguation page on Island language and a redirect from Island languages to Languages of Norfolk Island. Batternut (talk) 23:08, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
:::Sorry, my examples were meant merely as illustrations for why the plurals of language names don't work the way you seemed to expect (judging from you nomination). Anyway, the crucial point here is that the plural phrase means something different from the singular. The uses of the singular are well documented at Pahari language, and the use of the plural is well established: just see the target article and its sources. – Uanfala (talk) 23:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
::::Alas the plural does not always mean the current target - it has often been used to include Western Pahari, which is not part of Northern Indo-Aryan languages (even though the article implies it is). Furthermore you cannot state that the plural is never used to the other non-Northern Indo-Aryan languages listed at Pahari language. Batternut (talk) 23:53, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::Western Pahari is normally included in Northern IA (even though some classifications exclude it), but that's irrelevant. Regardless of how the group is defined in the various works, "Pahari languages" is a synonym for it. As for the plural being used to refer to an individual language, that's simply preposterous. You'll need a lot of examples to show that they're relevant for determining the primary topic of the redirect, but good luck finding any. – Uanfala (talk) 00:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::I am simply saying that "Pahari languages" is used in a way that can include any or all of the languages labelled as "Pahari". Batternut (talk) 09:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|The plural being used to refer to an individual language}} - does chairs refer to an individual chair? That is not the implication of the plural pointing to the singular. If that is {{tq|preposterous}} as you say, then WP:PLURALPT is too. Batternut (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|"Pahari languages" is a synonym for it}} (ie Northern Indo-Aryan) - Pahari does not include Nepali or Dogri, so it cannot be a synonym for Northern Indo-Aryan languages which clearly do include them. That is the view of the census of India, shown in their [https://web.archive.org/web/20131014133158/http://www.censusindia.gov.in:80/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/Statement1.aspx 2001 report]. Batternut (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
::::::::In the census results you link to, "Pahari" is used as a language name (in the singular), and not as a name for a group of languages (the plural). – Uanfala (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::The 2001 census use of the name "Pahari" cannot conceivably refer to a single Pahari language... Alas the [https://web.archive.org/web/20150220020942/http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/partb.htm state-by-state breakdown of the non-scheduled languages] doesn't help - that Pahari, added into Hindi, is not explained anywhere I have found. Batternut (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::To be precise, the "Pahari" of the census is a "mother tongue": a category that the census reports subsume under individual "languages" (the "language" in question in this case being Hindi). – Uanfala (talk) 21:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
::::::::It's easier to find authors using the term "Pahari languages" meaning just those languages commonly called Pahari, and therefore exclude many members of the Northern Indo-Aryan group. Eg Suresh Raj Sharma "the Pahari languages as well as Rajasthani and Dogri will forge ahead ...",[{{cite book|last1=Sharma|first1=Suresh K.|title=Language in contemporary India|date=2006|publisher=Vista International Publishing House|isbn=9788189526870|page=146|url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VM4bAQAAIAAJ|language=en}}] Thomas Sebeok "... debate is concerned only with the Nepali language, even though many... are speakers of the Pahari languages" and "Nepali is increasing at the expense of the Pahari languages,"[{{cite book|last1=Sebeok|first1=Thomas Albert|title=Current Trends in Linguistics|date=1969|publisher=Mouton|page=272|url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GrUoAQAAIAAJ|language=en}}] Prithvi Nath Kaula "Out of these languages Kashmiri, Dogri, Tibeti, and Panjabi Languages can be written as well. But Chabali, Dardi and Pahari languages cannot be put down into writing"[{{cite book|last1=Kaula|first1=Prithvi Nath|last2=Dhar|first2=Kanahaya Lal|title=Kashmir Speaks|date=1950|publisher=S. Chand|page=16|url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hkI_AAAAMAAJ|language=en}}] ... Batternut (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::In your last example, "Pahari" is used as the name of a single language (the word "language" is in the plural because it is at the end of an enumeration). Your second example is from a paper by T. W. Clark (Sebeok is only the editor of the volume). Right at the start (p. 249) he declares that within the paper he will use the term "Pahari" to refer to the languages of the "Hill sectors" of Nepal (a topic for which we don't have an article). We shouldn't attempt to reflect this idiosyncratic use of the term "Pahari" unless it has been picked in the later literature. Your first example is from a paper by Ram Bilas Sharma (a different person from Suresh Raj Sharma, who is the editor of the compilation). From the context it is clear that "Pahari languages" refers to the Western Pahari languages of Himachal, one of the three well-defined subgroups defined in the target article. I don't think that a user who encounters this term and searches for it will be misled by arriving at the current target. – Uanfala (talk) 21:32, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
:The fact that most [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Pahari_languages&namespace=0&limit=100 pages that link to Pahari languages] do so via piped links such as Pahari, confusing the singular and the plural, indicates to me that singular and plural should lead to the same article. Batternut (talk) 01:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
::These links are mostly artefacts of WP:DPL activity – people "fixing" links to dab pages (Until recently, Pahari languages was the only language entry in the dab page Pahari). Virtually all of these links are wrong and I've been working on correcting them. – Uanfala (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
:::This is why Pahari languages should go to a disambiguation page! Batternut (talk) 11:24, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
:::Replacing such links with unsourced guess at a target and tagging with "Citation needed" (as you have just done [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samahni_Valley&diff=prev&oldid=827848430 here]) doesn't seem to be a constructive approach. Batternut (talk) 11:31, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- (as proposer) Redirect to disambiguation at Pahari language, in summary (a) generally per WP:PLURALPT and WP:POFR singular and plural yield the same destination page, and as the difference here between singular and plural is not that great (one group of languages versus a variety of eponymous languages), for most people the subtle linguistic distinction does not warrant the surprise; and (b) although the majority of "Pahari languages" occurrences may refer to the Northern Indo-Aryan languages, given that many namesake languages/dialects are not in that group, disambiguation will best aid the casual arrival. Batternut (talk) 12:41, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
