. Following the plan set out by {{u|Tavix}} and {{u|Kusma}}:
- All uses will be reviewed for appropriateness under Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Text.
- Appropriate uses should be converted to use {{tl|Abbr}}; Any non-abbreviations should be removed or replaced with footnotes.
- Once all uses are cleared, {{tl|Tooltip}} will be replaced with an error message, something along the lines of {{error|{{tl|Tooltip}} is deprecated. {{tl|Abbr}} should be used to provide accessible use of abbreviations, but other uses of tooltips should be avoided.}}
I imagine this would likely be done largely with AWB assistance, but I think advertising at WP:AWB/TA might be inappropriate as this is will be a bit of a process and will require human decision making. I'll wait until this evening and mull it over, in case anyone here has comments or suggestions as to how to move forward. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = Template:Tooltip }} → :Template:Abbr (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Tooltip&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2018-03-01&end=2018-03-30&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Template%3ATooltip stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Template:Tooltip|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Template:Tooltip closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Template:Tooltip|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Template:Tooltip closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Template:Tooltip|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Template:Tooltip closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
This template was originally turned into a redirect in this discussion.
Nominated for deletion. While the name of this redirect is accurate to its functional purpose, use of this template suggests general use of tooltips is acceptable, in contradiction to {{Section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility|Text}}, which states: {{tq|"Do not use techniques that require interaction to provide information, such as tooltips or any other "hover" text. Abbreviations are exempt from these requirements, so the {{tlf|abbr}} template may be used to indicate the long form of a word."}}. Since this template is widely used, I have started a bot task request for replacing it (among other purposes), should this discussion be in favor of deleting it. E to the Pi times i (talk | contribs) 04:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
::If this discussions is favor of deleting, COSMETICBOT will not be a concern, as it states: {{tq|"Consensus can, as always, create exceptions for particular cosmetic edits. For example, the community frequently determines that a particular template should be substituted so it can be deleted, even though the substitution does not change the output of the page."}}
- Keep The redirect name is easy to guess name. As to abuse, using AWB's database scanner there are only 204 that exceed 140 characters
\{\{\s*(?:[Tt]emplate:|)(?:[Aa]bbreviation|[Aa]bbrv|[Aa]bbr|[Dd]efine|[Mm]ousetext|[Tt]ooltip)\s*[|][^{}]{140,}\}\} Those should be fixed but no reason for nuking this redirect. — Dispenser 13:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
:*That isn't the only abuse; per accessibility concerns tooltips shouldn't be used unless they are for abbreviations Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
::{{Reply|Dispenser}} My concern is the name is misleading to its purpose, which is expanding abbreviations (stated in WP:ACCESSIBILITY, as I mentioned in the nomination above). The concern is users will continue to misuse this template because of the name. Also, 140 characters seems like an extremely high bound for abbreviations; most abbreviations are probably under 50 characters. When the Wikipedia search is used to test in that range (using the regex \{\{[tT]ooltip[^|]*\|[^}]{50}), there are {{search link|hastemplate:"tooltip" insource:/\{\{[tT]ooltip[^{{!}}]*\{{!}}[^}]{50}/|1,594 results}}. That is 1.9% of total transclusions, not a large percentage, but significant, and makes me think deleting {{tl|tooltip}} leaves less room for ambiguity in {{tlf|abbr}}'s purpose. E to the Pi times i (talk | contribs) 16:05, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
- Comment What would a bot do when it finds {{Tooltip...}}? Changing it to {{Abbr...}} doesn't improve the presentation; it just conceals any abuse of Abbr. Stripping it out puts able-bodied readers on a par with those who can't see tooltips but, as it improves legibility for no one, is that actually useful? Can we find a presentation which works for all readers? The headers in the table at Paavo Nurmi#Seasons may be a good example: Starts is a tooltip; DNF is a genuine abbreviation. What would we want those headers to look like after this change? Certes (talk) 16:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
::{{Reply|Certes}} Since the number of abuse cases is manageable, semi-automated edits will handle misuse cases first. Misuse of tooltips should mostly be moved to prose, or moved to a footnote. I have made an edit to Paavo Nurmi#Seasons to demonstrate what I mean. E to the Pi times i (talk | contribs) 16:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 00:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Delete later, after giving eπi and others time to amend pages which use it. Please do not delete the redirect immediately at closure time, or 83,000 embarrassing redlinks will appear. Certes (talk) 09:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 13:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
- Deprecate, as long as the usage of the redirect is cleared manually or semi-automatically, because the differences between legitimate and illegitimate usage of tooltip will need to be resolved in different manners (like the Paavo Nurmi#Seasons example). Once the links have been cleared, I think it would be best to replace the redirect with an error message, stating the accessibility issues with tooltip and pointing to {{tl|abbr}} if one is trying to use tooltip for an abbreviation. Straight up deleting the redirect may make it seem that tooltip is never legitimate, which is not accurate. -- Tavix (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- :How do we display the error message? Should Tooltip become a soft redirect to Abbr, once existing uses have been fixed? Certes (talk) 14:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- ::I got the idea from a previous RfD where the result was deprecate. See Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 July 4#Template:Cc-by-sa for an example of what it could look like. Basically, it would be a message using {{tl|error}} that explains the accessibility issues and links to {{tl|abbr}}. -- Tavix (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Deprecate as Tavix says. Clearing up the uses of {{t|tooltip}} seems reasonable to reduce confusion and bad uses Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:19, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}Relisting comment: If we're going to deprecate 80,000 uses, I'd like a bit more consensus, especially given the
BRFA conversation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 01:21, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}Relisting comment: There's a keep and a couple deletes in here, but those were made 1. before the "deprecate" option was floated, and 2. while the idea of a bot/semiautomated action seemed viable; it no longer does. I will not be relisting this again, it's been longer than the Flood already; if the world can be beset and reset with rain, we can solve this.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 01:08, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Deprecate and replace with error message as mentioned above. There's no good solution here, but that's the least worst solution we have I think. Richard0612 08:08, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Deprecate. Some uses can be replaced by {{tl|abbr}}, others need to be fixed for accessibility reasons (and might need turning into footnotes, or proper sentences). I would suggest replacing with {{tl|abbr}} where that is correct (can be done with AWB while checking manually), then try to fix other transclusions, then replace by error message. We could allow it to work outside of mainspace though. —Kusma (t·c) 09:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Looks like the hail mary 4th listing has generated a few more comments. I also posted on WT:ACCESSIBILITY and Template talk:Abbr Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Regardless of the final ending of the page Template:Tooltip, it {{em|should not}} redirect to Template:Abbr. Abbr's tooltip is a special case in HTML that is required to be the abbreviation's expansion; the name "tooltip" does not indicate that restriction. --Izno (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
::Indeed, hence why we're wanting to deprecate it and make it not redirect to Abbr as it currently does (but instead show an error/be deleted) Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
