. signed, Rosguill talk 19:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire }} → :Tottenham House (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manor_of_Tottenham,_Wiltshire&action=history history] · [https://iw.toolforge.org/pageviews?start=2020-08-26&end=2020-09-24&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Manor_of_Tottenham%2C_Wiltshire stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire }} → :Tottenham House (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Estate_of_Tottenham,_Wiltshire&action=history history] · [https://iw.toolforge.org/pageviews?start=2020-08-26&end=2020-09-24&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Estate_of_Tottenham%2C_Wiltshire stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
Neither of these exist so the redirects should be deleted. Discussed at Talk:Tottenham House#Relevant discussion from Talk:Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire. —SMALLJIM 16:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Neither Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire nor Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire exist except in Wikipedia mirrors. There was a manor of Tottenham in London, but not in Wiltshire. These redirects therefore have potential to cause confusion (WP:RFD#DELETE 2) as a Wikipedia search for Manor of Tottenham includes Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire, and a Google search for "Manor of Tottenham" includes the redirect, which is misleading. SilkTork (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - Manor of Tottenham never existed outside of Wikipedia, and retaining it has the potential to perpetuate the error. Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire is a description, in so much as one can call any property ownership a landed estate, but it is not 'a thing' and not the typical terminology one would search for. Agricolae (talk) 16:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- What do you mean "Neither of these exist"? The target article describes a manor or estate called Tottenham in Wiltshire, doesn't it? --BDD (talk) 17:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
::A place called Tottenham House exists, but while the most fine-grained modern history of the county mentions Tottenham House and Tottenham Lodge as locations within the parish of Great Bedwyn, and it mentions that there is a Tottenham park in the parish, never are any of these places named Tottenham called a 'manor' (which means something much more specific in the English context than just the land around a stately home). As to 'estate' - lower case 'e' - yes, there is an estate there in so much as I can also call my back yard my estate, but it is not an 'Estate' - capital 'E' - in any formal sense, and someone looking for Tottenham House might instead search for "Tottenham, Wiltshire, but would have no reason to add 'Estate of' to the front of their search. Agricolae (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
:::I appreciate the information, but those fine distinctions are unlikely to be understood by most of our global readership. Are there other places that these terms could refer to? Especially since we can tag them with something like {{t|R from incorrect name}}, will providing access via these search terms be harmful for readers? --BDD (talk) 21:42, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
::::We should delete "Manor of..." because that is harmful. I created "Estate of..." back in May as an expedient measure when I realised there was no such manor. The "Estate of..." redirect won't do any harm, but as Agricolae says it's very unlikely to be helpful. —SMALLJIM 22:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
:::Hi BDD. The situation is subtle and complex. One way to describe it, would be to give as comparison someone creating Manor of Buckingham to write about the people who have lived in Buckingham Palace, and when Manor of Buckingham is cleaned up, it is turned into a redirect to Buckingham Palace. The problem being, of course, that there never has been a Manor of Buckingham. There was, way in the past, a Manor of Ebury, but that ceased to exist when the land was given to the monks at Westminster (monks owned and managed land in the same way as Lords of the manor, but when they did it was called an abbey not a manor). By creating an article or redirect called "Manor of Buckingham" it would give people the impression that such a manor existed. And people may go around saying "Wikipedia says that Buckingham Palace was part of the Manor of Buckingham", which is not true. In the same way, people may go around saying "Wikipedia says that Tottenham House in Wiltshire was part of the Manor of Tottenham, which is not true, and even more confusing because there was a Manor of Tottenham in London. The likelihood of someone typing in either "Manor of Tottenham, Wiltshire" or "Estate of Tottenham, Wiltshire" is almost zero, but increases by each day that these redirects exist and mirrors are created on the internet. I would have speedied them, but I don't think they meet any of the criteria. SilkTork (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
::::Anyone making such claims needs only to learn that we provide access to readers from incorrect terms, though. It's not accurate to say that Wikipedia claims there is a {{no redirect|Prime Minister of the United States}}, but, well... --BDD (talk) 13:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::Thanks BDD. I take your point, and I hope you'll take mine: that where a mistake is very common and exists outside of Wikipedia, it is absolutely right that we create such redirects. But when a misguided user has created the only usage of such a term here on Wikipedia, that such a redirect is misleading, and should be deleted to prevent the usage being copied and causing confusion. Wikipedia is not the place for original research or original mistakes. SilkTork (talk) 02:26, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::Fair enough. Not being a common mistake elsewhere is a strike against it, for sure. --BDD (talk) 14:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 17:39, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep the estate one, but delete the manor one. [https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1000472 Historic England] calls it an estate, but the use of manor appears to be an error and should not be perpetuated. Hog Farm Bacon 15:20, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
