to Ramen#Emoji. MBisanz talk 20:54, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = 🍜 }} → :Wikt:🍜 (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=🍜&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-07-03&end=2016-08-01&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=🍜 stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:🍜|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#🍜 closed as retarget}}}} retarget]}} ]
{{Old RfD list|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 20#🍜|Soft redirect|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 16#🍜|No consesus|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 25#🍜|No consesus}}
I am sorry to say, but for the "Shallow Pan of Food" emoji has had just one RfD discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_February_21#🥘 and we got to redirect the "Shallow Pan of Food" emoji to a section of the Paella article. For this "Steaming Bowl" emoji, I have sent more than one RfD discussion and is everytime being closed as "No Consensus", and during Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 25#🍜 the last discussion, we were "almost" getting a consensus to redirect to Ramen#Emoji. This is not helpful. We need the same consensus here as in the Shallow Pan of Food discussion so that we can redirect the "Steaming Bowl" emoji to the corresponding section of the Ramen article. The name of the emoji does not equate its primary use. [https://emojipedia.org/shallow-pan-of-food/ 🥘] is called "Shallow Pan of Food", but its primary use is for the Spanish dish "Paella". Similarly, [https://emojipedia.org/steaming-bowl/ 🍜] is called "Steaming Bowl", but its primary use is for the Japanese dish "Ramen". Looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%F0%9F%8D%9C&action=history], it was an anonymous user who changed the redirect from Ramen to Bowl in 2015 without any discussion. My first step here is to ping the emoji experts {{u|Gorobay}}, {{u|JPxG}}, {{u|1234qwer1234qwer4}}, and {{u|Gaioa}} as well as the participants of the discussion Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_March_6#🥘, the admin {{u|Tavix}} as well as {{u|Bkonrad}}, {{u|Patar knight}}, and {{u|The Mysterious El Willstro}}, to form a consensus. And see [https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/b00137/picture-this-a-list-of-japanese-emoji.html this link] too, concerning all Japan related emojis. Neel.arunabh (talk) 21:42, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Retarget to Ramen#Emoji, which discusses the character. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Retarget per above and LaundryPizza03. (By the way, I'm referred to as an emoji expert? I'm humbled, but not sure what earned me that kind of street cred) Gaioa (T C L) 08:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- :That is because I saw you as the page creator of some of the emoji redirects. Neel.arunabh (talk) 16:14, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Retarget to Ramen#Emoji per LaundryPizza03. --Lenticel (talk) 08:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Set index (or keep). I'm not sure why the content is at Ramen rather than a page that explains the various uses of this emjoi in addition that that one because it's only tangentially relevant there. A page like Stuffed flatbread is what we should be aiming for here as the most encyclopaedic and, unlike redirecting to Ramen (which I oppose), not misleading. Thryduulf (talk) 09:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Since I’ve been pinged as an emoji expert, here’s some history of this code point. It was originally meant to correspond to an emoji ([https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2009/09027r2-emoji-backgrnd.pdf#page=57 code e-963]) called “どんぶり” (donburi) or “ラーメン” (ramen) by different vendors. That is why the name is the generic “STEAMING BOWL” instead of “RAMEN”. The Japanese national body therefore [https://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n3792.pdf#page=18 requested that the representative glyph be changed to be less noodle-specific] (which was done) and later [https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2010/10041-02n4122.pdf#page=31 noted that the glyph didn’t match the annotation “rice donburi”] (which led to the removal of that annotation). [https://emojipedia.org/steaming-bowl/ Most vendors] render it as specifically noodles, but it is originally supposed to be vague about exactly what the hot food in the bowl is. I don’t think a set index for “Japanese foods served hot in bowls” would be encyclopedic. Therefore, I think it would be best to keep the interwiki (whose definition is incomplete, but that can be fixed). A redirect to Ramen#Emoji wouldn’t be too bad (though I don’t prefer it) if it explained that the emoji was not proposed in 2009 for ramen (as it currently misleadingly claims) though it is most commonly depicted as ramen. Gorobay (talk) 13:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Retarget to Ramen#Emoji where this is discussed. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 18:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Retarget to Ramen#Emoji, I can't see the point in having this as a cross project redirect when we have more detailed content available locally. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 18:20, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
File:Curling stone.png
- Retarget to Curling#Curling stone. It's clearly depicting a curling stone. I don't know how you get ramen from this, unless ramen is part of the bonspiel purse. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 15:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- :{{u|PEIsquirrel}} That emoji is under the "Asian Food" subcategory of the main category "Food and Drink". It is certainly not a "Curling Stone" as you claim. Neel.arunabh (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::It can be subcategorized however you say, but the glyph is a clear depiction of a curling stone. I saw in my watchlist an icon of a plain solid object with a rounded base, a coloured top section, and a colourized handle attached and anchored to the base off-centre, exactly what a curling stone looks like, and I 100% expected to find here a discussion about which curling topic to retarget it to. I'm honestly astounded that anyone sees this icon and connects it to a noodle dish. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 17:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- :::{{u|PEIsquirrel}} You are looking at the wrong icon. Look carefully at the at the pictures shown in [https://emojipedia.org/steaming-bowl/]. They are completely different from the image you have shown. The emoji for "Curling Stone" is 🥌. Neel.arunabh (talk) 18:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::::We're not talking about images rendered on an external site, or what formal title or categorization a knowledgeable person can look up in an external directory, we're talking about the page title as it renders on Wikipedia, and that is 🍜. I see how the blown-up version looks like grasping a noddle dish with chopsticks and that's likely what the glyph as rendered here is meant to represent, but isn't ramen more commonly eaten with a spoon, like a soup? See [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=ramen&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image] for example. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 20:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- :::::{{u|PEIsquirrel}} How it renders "on Wikipedia" depends entirely upon which browser, operating system and font you use while visiting the site. Wikipedia doesn't render the emoji - it just passes the Unicode to the browser. A few examples of how the emoji looks on different platforms - https://twitter.com/emojipedia/status/1078595419268091905. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::::::So we agree that the rendering is subjective. In my browser (currently Firefox 89.0.2 on Windows 10 Pro 20H2) it renders as an image that I interpreted as a curling rock. It did not render with additional text or metadata or a popover or whatever that would give me more information to determine that it's actually an image of a bowl of noodles. If a reader clicks on a tiny image that looks like a curling rock (in their view) they will be quite astonished to be taken to information on an Asian culinary dish, just as they would be if curling rock took them there. You can keep telling me that the picture isn't a curling rock, and I completely understand why you're saying it, but to me this only proves that 🍜 is a representation of ramen only when a myriad of external factors and pre-knowledge are taken into account, which is not how titles are supposed to work. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 14:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- :::::::{{re|Ivanvector|PEIsquirrel}} To me it also looks more like a curling stone than a ramen bowl at a cursory glance, but I disagree that targeting the reader to Curling#Curling stone is the right idea. The reader searching up this emoji is likely looking for information on what it means. I think that targeting the redirect to a curling page would mislead the reader as to the (official) meaning of the redirect. — J947 ‡ message ⁓ edits 03:58, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Weak Keep I guess. Emoji Redirects like this are probably little used, but Redirects in general are also very cheap. They take up very little server space. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 03:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- :Hey, but in the "Shallow Pan of Food" discussion, you were the last to participate and your comment there was " Refine to Paella#In popular culture per Tavix and per Patar Knight. That Section of that Article, by the way, was added after this debate opened. Also, I wasn't aware of the Section when I wrote my previous (now stricken) vote.", which contradicts your comment above here. There is a reason why I pinged only select participants of that discussion. Neel.arunabh (talk) 04:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::Well, it's been a long time since I looked at this (or any other) Emoji Redirect. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, redirecting to wiktionary is informative and avoids any possible confusion or surprise. I'm not convinced that the local content at Ramen#Emoji is really due for inclusion, as it appears to rely solely on an Emojipedia entry. signed, Rosguill talk 04:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- :Local redirects are better than cross-project redirects. Neel.arunabh (talk) 14:37, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::Not when the content we have locally is unencyclopedic and undue, and where the emoticon's rendering is subjective per Ivanvector. Repeatedly nominating this redirect for discussion when the status quo is perfectly reasonable is starting to border on disruption. signed, Rosguill talk 20:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment, see {{u|Mazca}}'s comment in the previous discussion, "While it's a "steaming bowl" rather than "bowl of ramen" in a technical sense, the small section there does give that information. The wiktionary link, while fine, offers no real further information compared to that sentence (and, if anything, confirms that its primary use is in the sense of "ramen"), and it is preferable to avoid a cross-project redirect when we do have broadly equivalent local content.". Neel.arunabh (talk) 14:41, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- To all those !voting keep. This is consistently getting 250 hits a month. That's extremely high for a local redirect and so very clearly this is something people are looking for. We obviously don't want an article on this topic so a cross-project redirect is the exact worst thing we can do for readers here - our job is to educate people and we don't do that by using a cross-project redirect and giving them (if they are lucky) unhelpful search results. Neel.arunabh (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- :{{tq|We obviously don't want an article on this topic so a cross-project redirect is the exact worst thing we can do for readers here - our job is to educate people and we don't do that by using a cross-project redirect and giving them (if they are lucky) unhelpful search results.}} This argument doesn't make any sense. Do you understand how cross-project redirects work? signed, Rosguill talk 20:46, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::Well, I tried to mimic a similar statement that was made in the iPhone 9 deletion discussion, which said {{tq|We obviously don't want an article on this topic so a redlink is the exact worst thing we can do for readers here - our job is to educate people and we don't do that by deleting the redirect and giving them (if they are lucky) unhelpful search results.}} . Neel.arunabh (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- :::A soft redirect (which is what a cross-project redirect is) and a redlink are completely different things - compare Anglocentrism and Snapology. A soft redirect directs users to content on a sister project that is about/directly relevant to their search term, a redlink will (depending on a few factors) either invite someone to create a page and/or show search results, which may or may not be relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 22:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- :{{yo|Neel.arunabh}} you are not allowed to relist a discussion in which you are WP:INVOLVED. Accordingly, I have reverted this relist. -- Tavix (talk) 14:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- ::But what shows whether I am WP:INVOLVED or not? Neel.arunabh (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- :::You are considered "involved" in any discussion in which you have expressed an opinion. -- Tavix (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
