Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#rfc 6D5261B

I will shortly be going away for nearly 3 weeks and have very limited availability whilst I am away. As such, I would appreciate any help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Nominations for deletion and page moves, adding new discussions (they can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Article alerts, that is updated once a day by a bot), and archiving old AFDs to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Deletion archive. GiantSnowman 17:53, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

:Im flying tomorrow, so likely offline for 24-48 hours and then limited access for next 2 or so weeks... GiantSnowman 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Copy that. I'll try to keep an eye on everything. Safe travels! — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm a simple editor here, fan of the Albania national football team, where recently here was someone who have made repeated edits, which I thought wasn't even neccessary so I reverted once. Could somebody judge between us, thanks a lot. 217.21.153.82 (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:What exactly is the dispute: all I can see is a revert war with no discussion? Have you even tried using a talk page to resolve? Spike 'em (talk) 14:30, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:Also, you should inform your counterpart that you have started this discussion. Spike 'em (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::Sorry no , I dont even know what to do I'm new here, but all I can say it's that I excpect somebody to resolve that, if it's neccessary to fill the wikitable with colors or not... 217.21.153.82 (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::I don't know, you ca n simply see recent edits to understand what is exactly this dispute about. 217.21.153.82 (talk) 15:20, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I can't tell what the 2 of you are trying to achieve. The 2 of you need to talk about it on a talk page and give reasons why the colours are or are not appropriate. You have managed to start a conversation here, and are demanding that we look into the problem without explaining what that problem is. Start by creating a similar discussion on the article talk page. Spike 'em (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::::217.21.153.82, at Talk:Albania national football team click "New section" to start a discussion. Robby.is.on (talk) 16:06, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Does anyone know about relevant sources in which the primary topic is the rivalry between these two teams? I came across it and it's yet another international rivalry page giving a military history lesson and a list of results separated by decades. I'd be amazed if these two countries took a football match passively, so I'm not nominating for deletion, but the page is really not showing me anything good. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:53, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have processed the nomination. A total of 14 matches over more than 70 years does not make a rivalry. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Going back to this article, there is national and domestic, the problem with the article it's focusing on the national teams and isn't on all the problems of the domestic clubs which have had even greater issues. It's actually a much larger subject than what people realise. If done right you could easily have a good article. The merge idea (at AfD) of sports into one article would actually balloon and isn't a good idea. Govvy (talk) 08:20, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

File:Information.svg There is a requested move discussion at Talk:CD Extremadura 1924#Requested move 12 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 16:08, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Not to WP:CANVAS but I've been in a bit of a dispute with this user. The user has been advised by User:Kokoeist to leave infoboxes as league only. User:BrazilianDude70 at first thought Victor was just adding stats from Brazilian state league matches, but has since seen that he was adding cup and continental games too. User:Drmies discussed on the user talk page that there is probably ground to ask for admin action.

I interpret there as being a language issue as Victor has never added text, just digits, and has never written an edit summary or talk post. BRD70 said there could be confusion as the Portuguese Wikipedia puts all games in the infobox. The reversions are relentless and no dialogue is possible with this user.

I can't go to WP:ANI as I'm just on phone and won't be able to collect the diffs. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

• Ping {{U|GiantSnowman}}. Drmies (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :he's away (see above). Spike 'em (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::@Unknown Temptation: I've sent him (Victor is a 100% male name in Brazil) a message fully in Portuguese. Let me know if he continues with this approach. Also pinging Mr. @Mattythewhite who used to help me with those issues :) BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 20:44, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::Revert, warn, and then if they continue, block - it's disruptive and CIR. GiantSnowman 10:48, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Happened again. User is not ready to listen and follow the guidelines even though @BrazilianDude70 left a message in Portuguese and @Unknown Temptation warned them several times. Kokoeist (talk) 08:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Blocked for two weeks. Can someone check/tidy up recent edits? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• Just quintuple checking here, but pro/rel playoff games aren't included either, right? Soccerway seems to include such games from the first- and second-tier Mexican leagues, which I'm sure has affected tons of infoboxes. (see 2021/22 stats: 23 games on [https://us.soccerway.com/players/ivan-oswaldo-tona-olmeda/590967/ SW] vs 16 on [https://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/ivan-tona/2/ WF]). JTtheOG (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
• :We do not include playoffs in the infobox - they are 'other' in the stats box. GiantSnowman 22:02, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sportski recenzist

I happened to notice that the IP ranges in the last investigation regarding this user seem to be continuing the same behavior as before the initial temporary block resulting from the investigation. To clarify where the connection comes from, I (under a different similar username) initially reverted an attempted PROD they made in 2022 following suspected changes within Malaysia Super League at the time, followed by multiple reverts of the same user within a 24-hour period. I managed to get them blocked quickly after they got aggressive with me, and for a period after, the user had harassed me multiple times on Wikimedia (Commons, especially), an old YouTube channel, and on Telegram trying to harass me into "changing it back". Since those harassment attempts, that SPI has been made and it seems you guys are now aware of the behavior.

Also giving a courtesy ping to previously involved editors {{ping|GiantSnowman|Nehme1499|Drat8sub|Firefly|Iggy the Swan|Snowflake91|p=}}, who also seem to have experienced this user and series of IPs in the past. I bring this up here cause this same behavior is happening again, particularly with PROD notices [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=General_Aung_San_Shield&diff=1286337738&oldid=1286315575 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_Pahang_Sports_School&diff=1286458581&oldid=1286457910 here]. Jalen Barks (Woof) 04:57, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

: Of course he is still editing, not only unregistered but also as User talk:Cenderabird. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

::What's the evidence? I suggest you re-open SPI. GiantSnowman 14:37, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:::When I first encountered Sportski recenzist in October 2022, I had reverted this attempt at a PROD [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liga_M3&diff=1117071457&oldid=1115830584 here], which is my basis for the similarity in PROD style. The user had harassed me off-site once and on Wikimedia projects multiple times in the year since for my full rollback of at least 24 hours worth of this user's edits in the same timeframe, plus subsequent block. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:32, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:::At the moment, I am uncertain on whether to take this to SPI myself or with the necessary backup. I have been hesitant to revert 93.140.45.145 for the block evasion on grounds they might know who I am after my August 2024 name change (I was formerly JalenFolf). Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have gone ahead and reverted the PRODs. I will let an experienced editor assess other edits to see if we can take the IPs back to SPI. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:58, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Is there a consensus on Template:Infobox football biography list league games only in the person's infobox stats? Why is it different from senior international matches that users are free to list appearances and goals across all competitions? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 12:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:Yes there is a consensus, this has been discussed multiple times before. And all internationals are the same standard of match and all international caps get counted, whereas for many countries and leagues and historic eras, there is not reliable data on Cup games and appearances. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:34, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:(ec) Yes, there absolutely is consensus and has been for many years. Domestic stats for competitions other than the league are often hard to find, especially for earlier eras (e.g. there is a book that lists all players' league stats in England from 1888 to 1939, but it does not include any games in any other competitions), so the only way to be consistent is to list only league stats for everyone -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:56, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
• Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front). His German wikipedia article locates his death in Russia at Khalikovo (a place that appears to have no article).
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
• Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
• Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia. Can anyone more fluent in German make out further detail in the newspaper report used as reference?
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
• Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
• Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
• Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age gi ven as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
• Slavko Pavletic(Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
• Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
• Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown".

:UPDATE - I have found a citation to a recent Russian newspaper article which mentions him in passing as one of three pre-Russian Revolution national players who died in Leningrad during the siege https://portal-kultura.ru/articles/history/341863-no-gorod-nash-sporil-s-nelegkoy-sudboyu-futbol-v-blokadnom-leningrade/. I have added it to the English wiki article, though I would welcome if more definite published evidence could be produced.Cloptonson (talk) 08:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

• Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
• George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man? Cattivi found link to a French newspaper that suggest he is the same man. I am awaiting answers to questions I have put him.
• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date, between English and Polish wikipedia articles
• Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Talinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.

:*Warnken has some club career bits on the German wiki which needs copying over. Govvy (talk) 08:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Hoping I could get some clarification on the existing league notability; does this also apply to league seasons as well? FastCube (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:See WP:NSEASONS. GiantSnowman 10:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)