Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales#Literature

We currently have logos at the top of the infoboxes for:

• National Museum Cardiff
• St Fagans National Museum of History
• Big Pit National Coal Museum

We have images for:

• National Wool Museum
• National Slate Museum
• National Roman Legion Museum
• National Waterfront Museum

The Amgueddfa Cymru – Museum Wales article doesn't have an IB, but does have its logo as the lead image. A question. Do the four sites where we haven't got logos actually have logos? If they do, we don't seem to have them in Commons. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

:@KJP1, all the museums used to have individual logos based on the pre-2022 logo (except Waterfront which had a unique one). See the archived page [https://web.archive.org/web/20220801133351/https://museum.wales/branding/ museum.wales/branding]. But since the rebrand to Amgueddfa Cymru in 2022, and the subsequent deletion of that page soon after the rebrand, I assume all the individual museum logos were dropped for just one "Amgueddfa Cymru" logo used everywhere. ([https://scontent.fbhx2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/469891349_1111895820937937_4907776860359441756_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=e35_JxyBC0YQ7kNvgHiVWuP&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fbhx2-1.fna&_nc_gid=AnjDgLR7qBWFa6ivPK1OhHG&oh=00_AYBSMuyLUyLrfyTkmLaIqFk4VKNAKTE7s6yVhM_2soGCWA&oe=67A7B88C except Waterfront] which still shows pictures of it on their Facebook). Haven't found any new post-2022 logos for the other museums.

:So best to demote the old logos on those three, and prioritise the building on all of them? (and add Waterfront's?) DankJae 10:25, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

::DankJae - many thanks, and sorry for the delay in getting back. I will do that. Personally, I don't think the logos work that well as the lead images, but I see that the practice is followed on other cultural site articles, e.g. British Museum, National Gallery, although the logos are a bit less "radical". KJP1 (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

:::Done - I checked the National Museum/St Fagans/Big Pit websites, and couldn't see those logos in use anymore. They all head up with Amgueddfa Cymru. KJP1 (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

::::Italic 2A00:801:7B8:8FC1:CD30:732D:5041:7517 (talk) 20:59, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

FYI, the stub article Morgan ap Pasgen has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first (and only) sentence summarizes Morgan ap Pasgen this way:

• {{tq|"Morgan ap Pasgen was a mid 6th century King of Powys, and a son of Pasgen ap Cyngen."}}

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:

• {{tq|"There is no mention of a Morgan ap Pasgen or his father Pasgen ap Cyngen in any medieval genealogy I can find, nor in any scholarly works (e.g. Peter Bartrum's Welsh Classical Dictionary). I therefore conclude he never existed."}}

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks, --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:06, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|A. B.|Trojan Dreadnought}} The Welsh article does say he's in the Harleian genealogies; Trojan Dreadnought, have you looked in those ones specifically? The sentence with that statement is cited to "Canu Taliesin, ed. Ifor Williams (Cardiff, 1960), p. 19", but from the [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Canu_Taliesin/eIlcnQEACAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1 very limited preview] on Google Books it looks as if the later clauses of that sentence, explaining who the Cadelling were, are what is being cited to that source. I should note that the same citation for the same statement is in :cy:Pasgen ap Cyngen on his father, whose English article is also being PRODded. Ham II (talk) 18:09, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for looking at this. I searched through each of the 57 English web pages of the Taliesin at this [https://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/llyfrtaliesin.html site] for "Pasgen" with no luck.

::Our article cites the Taliesin but I don't know if I was looking at the right document. I also wonder if there may be alternate spellings of "Morgan" and "Pasgen".

::I know nothing about Welsh history -- I was looking at the latest list of proposed deletions at CAT:PROD and this one caught my eye. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:35, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I've found nothing helpful, particularly in the [https://biography.wales/ Dictionary of Welsh Biography]. I'm not sure whether we can conclude non-existence, but they don't seem notable at this stage. Tony Holkham (Talk) 19:39, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|Ham II}} My Welsh and Latin are essentially non-existent but the [http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/history/harleian_genealogies/index.html+Relevant+Harleian+genealogies relevant Harleian genealogies] are:

::XXII: [S]elim map Cínan map Brocmayl map Cincen map Maucanu map Pascent map Cattegirn map Catel dunlurc.

::XXIII: [H]esselis map gurhaiernu map Elbodgu map Cinnin map Millo map Brittu map Cattegirn map Catell.

::XXIV: [S]elim map iouab map Guitgen map Bodug map Canantinail map Cerennior map Ermic map Ecrin.

::XXVII:

::XXX: [M]aun, Artan, Iouab, Meic, filii Grippi[ud filii Catel filii Brocmail] filii Elized.

::XXXI: [E]lized, Ioab, Ædan, filii Cincen [filii Catel] filii Brocmail filii Elized.

::So XXII has a Maucanu map Pascent, and XXVII has Maucant map Pascent, but neither of those are descendants of Cyngen Glodrydd. They're both descendants of Catigern, third son of Vortigern. While I can't find Bartrum's entry for Maucanu/Maucant, this is his entry for Pasgen ap Gwrtheyrn (Welsh Classical Dictionary, p. 602):

::

He is mentioned in the Historia Brittonum (§48) as Pascent, the third son of Guorthigirn, 'who reigned in the two provinces of Buellt and Gwrtheyrnion after the death of his father. They were bestowed on him by Ambrosius [Emrys Wledig] who was the great king among the kings of Britain.' According to HB §49 (EWGT p.8) he was the father of Briacat, whose descendants apparently ruled the two provinces until the time of Ffernfael ap Tewdwr at the end of the eighth century.
In later pedigrees Pasgen has been foisted into the pedigree of the kings of Powys in various ways: Pasgen ap Cateyrn ap Cadell Ddyrnllug, father of Maucan in HG 22, 27; Pasgen ap Cadell Ddyrnllug ap Cateyrn, father of Manogan (JC 18) and finally Pasgen ap Brydw ap Rhuddfedel Frych ap Cyndeyrn [for Cateyrn] ap Gwrtheyrn, father of Cadell Ddyrnllug in ABT 6k, 9b, 20, HL 2f. See EWGT pp.12, 46, 100, 103, 107, 113. This shows the tendency, noted under Cadell Ddyrnllug, of stringing the sons of Vortigern into a pedigree.

GEOFFREY OF MONMOUTH
Geoffrey of Monmouth depicts Pascentius son of Vortigern in an entirely different role, which is hard to explain. After the death of Vortigern at the hands of Aurelius Ambrosius [Emrys Wledig] he is said to have fled to Germany to avenge his father's death. He landed in the north of Britain but was defeated by Aurelius Ambrosius. He then fled to Ireland and allied himself with Guillomaurius [Gillamwri]. They landed at Menevia and were met by Uther Pendragon, as Ambrosius was sick. Pasgen with the aid of a Saxon contrived to have Ambrosius poisoned, but when the invading army was attacked by Uther Pendragon, Pasgen and Guillamaurius were slain and their army destroyed (HRB VIII.13-16). Similarly in Brut y Brenhinedd.
Hector Boece tried to improve on Geoffrey of Monmouth by making Passentius brother of Octa and therefore a son of Hengist (Scotorum Historia, XI.1).

::Given that the geneaologies always show Pasgen as a son of Catigern and not Cyngen I'm inclined to believe there's no such person as Pasgen ap Cyngen and at best this entry is a confused attempt at describing a shadowy relation or successor to slightly less shadowy Pasgen ap Catigern.

::-- Trojan Dreadnought (talk) 19:40, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::@Ham II@A. B.@Tony Holkham

:::Well I finally found our man in Bartrum (p. 524), a very dubious character called Mawgan ap Pasgen. His entry is as follows:

:::

The ‘Harleian’ genealogies (HG 22 and 27 in EWGT p.12) head the genealogies of Powys with a series of names which are clearly wrong: Cincen /Cinan (read Cincen) map Maucanu (read Maucann)/Maucant map Pascent map Cattegirn map Catell Dunlurc/Catel. The corresponding pedigree in Jesus College MS.20 (§18 in EWGT p.46) omits Cyngen and continues: Manogan m. Pascen m. Cadell Deyrlloch. There is no doubt that the pedigree should go back to Cadell Ddyrnllug and Gwrtheyrn [Vortigern], and that the name of Vortigern has been deliberately suppressed. Pasgen and Cateyrn are known to be sons of Vortigern. It seems probable that Mawgan was a son of Pasgen ap Gwrtheyrn and that he has been foisted into the pedigree. See discussion by A.W.Wade-Evans in Arch.Camb., 85 (1930), pp.337-9, Nennius, 1938, p.57 n.1; and in EWGT pp.128-9.

:::Bloody Helga. So that's "Morgan ap Pasgen", except he's not called Morgan anywhere and the principal authority (unless anyone has access to Wade-Evans' 1930 article) says he comes from an extremely corrupt genealogy and wasn't Cyngen's grandson anyway. Woof.

:::-- Trojan Dreadnought (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{re|Trojan Dreadnought}} Yikes! Mawgan rendered as Morgan; they wouldn't be pronounced the same way in Welsh. And Cyngen from one generation confused with Catigern/Cateyrn/Cadeyrn in another. I think we need to check the spellings and general veracity of all the articles {{u|TheDanman11}} created in this subject area: Manwgan ap Selyf {{sma|(who seems to be called [https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/08_M-N.pdf Mael Myngan ap Selyf Sarffgadau] in [https://www.library.wales/discover-learn/digital-exhibitions/printed-material/a-welsh-classical-dictionary Bartrum])}}, Eiludd Powys {{sma|(apparently [https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/05_D-E-F.pdf Eiludd ap Cynan Garwyn] in Bartrum)}}, Beli ab Eiludd {{sma|(which TheDanmanman11 created with an incorrect "ap" before a vowel)}}, Brochfael ab Elisedd {{sma|(ditto, and he's [https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/02_A-B.pdf Brochwel ab Elise] in Bartrum)}}, Cadell ap Brochfael ({{sma|which he created as Cadell ap Elisedd; [https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/03_C1.pdf Cadell ap Brochwel ab Elise] in Bartrum)}} Merfyn ap Rhodri, Llywelyn ap Merfyn, Morgan ap Pasgen,{{aye}} Pasgen ap Cyngen,{{aye}} Cyngen Glodrydd, Rhyddfedd Frych {{sma|(which he created as Rhyddfedd Fyrch; the forename looks suspicious given that he's [https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/09_OPR.pdf Rhuddfedel Frych] in Bartrum)}}, Cadell Ddyrnllwg {{sma|([https://www.library.wales/fileadmin/docs_gwefan/new_structure/discover/digital_exhibitions/printed_material/welsh_classical_dictionary/03_C1.pdf Cadell Ddyrnllug] in Bartrum)}} and Cadeyern Fendigaid {{sma|(a mis-spelling of Cadeyrn Fendigaid, later merged into Catigern)}}.

:::::[https://journals.library.wales/view/4718179/4734246/382#?xywh=105%2C111%2C3448%2C2189 Here's the cited part of Wade-Evans's article.] "But when we consider the other four names [before Selyf, Cynan, Brochwel and Cyngen in HG 22], Mawgan, Pasgen, Cateyrn, and Cadell himself, difficulties arise which are insurmountable, unless we treat them in a way other than that in which they are presented to us in Harl[eian] Ped[igrees, i.e. genealogies] 22" gives a flavour of it. Ham II (talk) 06:24, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::@Ham II This is getting far beyond my competence to say anything useful but I agree a bunch of these articles need overhauling and possibly retitling. Before posting the PROD I did my best to revise the Cyngen Glodrydd and "Rhyddfedd Fyrch" articles with better-sourced material. -- Trojan Dreadnought (talk) 17:15, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::@Ham II@Tony Holkham@Trojan Dreadnought: I appreciate everybody's diligence. I'm fine with whatever you all decide about keeping or deleting this article. Like so much history from this sparsely documented era, the facts are murky to an outsider. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:54, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Seems like they don't need their own articles and best thing would be to add mentions of them to Catigern's article. They're just too shadowy to justify one or two sentence articles unless better sources turn up.

:::::-- Trojan Dreadnought (talk) 19:57, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Good idea A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:58, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Interesting. They are listed as kings of Powys in Kingdom_of_Powys, so presumably would just be red links there until (if) more is unearthed. Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:03, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Question marks after their name and edit the links to the appropriate section of Catigern's article would be my suggestion.

::::::::-- Trojan Dreadnought (talk) 20:23, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

{{outdent}} The List of monarchs of Powys (which is partly duplicated on the Kingdom of Powys article) has external links to lists that include Pasgen and Morgan, but quality of these sources is questionable – The archived copy the Britannia.com page (from before the site was usurped in c.2018) is clearly the main source for the wiki article but it is not clear where the info on that website was compiled from. The historyfiles.co.uk articles give different years with Pasgen in c.520 and has Brochfael before Morgan (I have updated the URLs, but archived versions of the previous link also had these years). EdwardUK (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:Special thanks to {{u|Srnec}} for rewriting and renaming the two articles, which are now titled Mawgan ap Pasgen and Pasgen ap Cadeyrn. I'm now turning my attention to the lists of kings of Powys in which one or both of them appear, which are on the following pages: Kingdom of Powys (Rulers of Powys section), List of monarchs of Powys, and List of rulers in Wales (Kings of Powys section). I've found the last of these more helpful than the other two, as it has individual citations for most of its items.

:In the first passage from Peter Bartrum's Welsh Classical Dictionary {{u|Trojan Dreadnought}} quoted from above (p. 602), Bartrum doesn't endorse Pasgen being the son of Cadeyrn, and Pasgen's entry is titled Pasgen ap Gwrtheyrn. That is, Pascent/Pascentius son of Vortigern, Vortigern's name having been suppressed in the genealogies because he was seen as a bad king. Perhaps the title and the focus of the article Pasgen ap Cadeyrn should be adjusted to reflect this, as it does seem probable. Ham II (talk) 08:06, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

I need a free-to use image of this [https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/bfc22f6a-ceb0-3515-babd-ada3515dfe91/Roman-lead-canister-from-pipe-burial/ pipe burial] from Museum Wales please, I'm away for a week, so no rush Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:13, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I am doing research for a DYK that could use help from Welsh Wikipedians. here is the link. Cheers! -1ctinus📝🗨 22:35, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:@1ctinus - I did a BNA search for Robert Cole (the writer of the article), and there was a Robert Cole writing about Welsh sports around 1990 for the Sunday Express, and possibly others. Worth trying to trace it from that angle. The trouble with BNA is they do such a huge return on a query it's a job to know where to look. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:57, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::might be a worry that the Sunday Express might not be a reliable source, unless it has changed since the 80s… -1ctinus📝🗨 23:01, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Not sure about that, but on the BNA you can enter the date and the newspaper and look though it, I presume. Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:17, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::::I thought I would just check - 22 Jan 1985 was a Tuesday. Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:20, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:Search of Welsh newspapers and Dictionary of Welsh Biography turned up nothing for either name . Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:10, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::From what I can see, BNA has no results correlation between the date and Robert Cole, so the newspaper is unlikely to be on BNA yet. That's it from me for now, but I hope you find some clue. Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:30, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Do these help?

:::[https://welsh-sports-hall-of-fame.wales/hall-of-fame/tom-richards/]

:::[https://www.teamgb.com/athlete/tom-richards/2rBO0EMcRSDuWzCwY0q1sc]

:::Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:43, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, I will be using those sources, but typically about 8 sources are the minimum to find for DYKs. Any extra source is a massive help. Thank you for your research help for looking for the clipping. -1ctinus📝🗨 23:52, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist}}

Y Gododdin has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Ebbw Valley Railway has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 05:54, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Aberdaron has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 22:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello. Project members are invited to participate in The World Destubathon. We're aiming to destub a lot of articles and also improve longer stale articles. It will be held from Monday June 16 - Sunday July 13. There is $3338 going into it, with $500 the top prize. If you are interested in winning some vouchers to help you buy books for future content by improving articles for your country or any other, or just see it as a good editathon opportunity to see a lot of articles improved for your project, sign up if interested.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:16, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:House of Tudor § Does the Tudor Dragon have a pizzle?. Also impacts Welsh dragon and possibly some depictions of the dragon elsewhere. DankJae 22:21, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

File:Ambox warning yellow.svg

The article :Jeff Global's Global Probe has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Tagged as Unreferenced and unimproved for 15 and 1/2 years. Actually unreferenced almost 20 years. No other language has an article from which to translate. TV show canceled after six episodes.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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