Wp:Featured article candidates/1988 Giro d'Italia/archive2

:The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 08:08, 21 June 2014 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/1988_Giro_d%27Italia/archive2&diff=613807704&oldid=613805913].

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{{pagelinks|1988 Giro d'Italia}}

{{Wikipedia:Featured article tools|1=1988 Giro d'Italia}}

:Nominator(s): Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I've put in some considerable labor into the article to bring it from what it was ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1988_Giro_d%27Italia&oldid=418703849]). I tried to get it to FA maybe a year ago, I don't remember exactly when since it was a long time ago. Anyways, that nomination stalled after only one editor contributed a lot of feedback and eventually supported it after I resolved the outlined issues. I would have pursued another go at FA soon after, but college got me busy. Now I'm getting free time so I thought I would try again as I feel this article is deserving of the status. I do respond speedily. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

comments from JMiall

A review of up until the first large table.

N.B. I only have passing knowledge of cycling and none of the specifics of the Giro.

Previous FACs have wanted sport specific terminology to be explained the first time it is used so I'm applying the same standard here.

• I would mention explicitly in the 1st sentence that the Giro is a cycling race.

::Fixed.

• Don't use the word 'edition' in the lead without explaining it as this is not the normal usage

::Replaced with running.

• Is it important to mention the details of the first and last stages before mentioning things like the total length of the race or number of stages or competitors?

::I added the number of stages and participants.

• Is the nationality of the the winners important enough to be mentioned in the lead and is the non-Italian-ness of the top 3 important enough to be mentioned in the 1st paragraph?

::I feel it is very noteworthy because of the rarity of the non-Italian sweep podium. It has only occurred I think 6 times in the 96 races.

• is the 'famed fourteenth stage' famed due to this occurance, this route generally or is it the fourteenth stage that is famed, wherever it happens to go?

::What happened on the fourteenth stage of this race is one of the most defining moments in cycling history. Do you want me to remove the famed from the sentence? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 05:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

:::If it is one of the defining moments in cycling history then why not say this explicitly in the lead? JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Does what I have work now? I'm not sure how to phrase it exactly.

:::::I think it is OK now. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• link General classification in the Giro d'Italia when pink jersey is first mentioned?

::Fixed.

• For the 2nd paragraph I'd treat it all in chronogical order rather than skipping about.

::Fixed.

• missing fullstop after 'classification'

::Don't know when that one got removed ahah. Good catch

• what is a neo-professional?

::This is explained in the classification leadership section.

• link peloton on first use

::Fixed.

• is it necessary to mention 180 cyclists twice so close together?

::Fixed

• Is the presentation of the teams important? If so can we have more information about what happened at it? If not then does it need mentioning?

::Fixed, adding a small part about it.

• Who invited the teams to compete? Was there anything unusual about the teams invited? Presumably they were all invited to send a squad of 9?

::Fixed the first. There wasn't anything unusual about the teams invited and

• Who named the riders as contenders? Could this be better stated as something like 'x named y and z as the pre-race favourites for the a and b classifications'

::Does 'l'Unità writer Gino Sala, author Bill McGann, and an El Mundo Deportivo writer named several riders as contenders for the overall classification, including Andrew Hampsten, Urs Zimmermann, Erik Breukink, Franco Chioccioli, and Pedro Delgado.' this work better?

:::Yes, if this the info available. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

• 'came into the Giro in great shape' - if it is was just someone's opinion he was in great shape then say so. If he was in great form in previous races then say that.

::Fixed

• Why didn't the italians realise the difficulty of the stage?

::Fixed.

• 'coming off from a cycling break as a result of injuries' -> 'after a break from cycling due to injuries'

::Fixed

• 'considered by some' - who?

::Fixed.

• 'Many media outlets felt that the overall victory would likely go to a non-Italian rider' - if this is worth mentioning then establish why

::Fixed.

• when did Moreno Argentin injure his knee?

::Earlier in the season, the article doesn't say and I tried searching newspapers about it but no results showed up. Would 'Before he injured his right knee earlier in the season...' work?

:::Yes, I only meant did he injure it before the race or at some point during the race. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

• what's a categorized climb?

::Fixed, just seems awkward to me. Thoughts?

:::I think it is better. Maybe I'd use brackets. I think it is important to have some explanation as to what it means as I don't think it is clear to all readers what the difference between a categorized and un-categorized climb would be. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

• what's a summit arrival?

::Fixed.

• It was hoped - by who?

::Fixed

• you start telling us events from the race itself in the route section

::If this is referring to the alterations to stage 11, I thought they were relevant there because the section is called routes and stages and pertains to the information in the table and the route itself, obviously.

:::The article sections are set out in approximate chronological order (although swapping sections 2&3 would make this closer) so to my eye it makes for an odd story if you put spoilers in the intro. JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::::I think it is in a good spot because the section goes into the route's details and also has route analysis, so I believe that briefly talking of stage modifications and cancellations to the route in that section is very appropriate even if it is a spoiler, a justified spoiler. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:36, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• 'the Stelvio Pass, but it was skipped due to snowdrifts that had developed on the pass' - too many passes?

::Fixed.

• what's Merano 2000?

::A mountain, there's no article for it so I didn't link. if that helps

:::maybe write 'the mountain, Merano 2000' on the first use then. JMiall₰ 06:51, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

• 'storied climbs of old' - so is there an article we can link to about these stories?

::Fixed.

• can we have some more explanation of why italian cyclists were bad at climbs but non-italians weren't?

::Fixed

• 'the team time trial could be a source of some sparks' - is this a quote? if not then it should be reworded, if it is it needs quotation marks.

::Fixed.

• other than having a lot of climbs how did the route compare to other years? in terms of distance, number of stages, number of time trials? what was the normal number of rest days?

JMiall₰ 22:39, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

::The distance was about 300km shorter than the previous one and had one less rest day and stage. There is no source for that comparison though.

:::All that's needed is sources for the numbers. Simple maths along the lines of 'aWP:CALC. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

• also the photo of Delgado is from much later. Can you find an image from 88 to use? Or close to then? JMiall₰ 22:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

::Found one from 93

:::Can this also have a 'pictured here...' JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

some more comments:

• in the 2009 FA article the terms mountain, flat and intermediate stage are used. Is there a reason for the difference?

::The organizers used official terms like that nowadays, but there is no way of knowing what they called each stage type so I just classified it by ones with classified mountains or not to be safe.

:::Why is there no way of knowing? Did they have official stage types then? If not then maybe that column of the table needs a footnote. JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::None of the articles that I have found online have specific categories for the stages, other than saying which ones contain mountains. To know how exactly they classified the stages would require the manual they give to each rider and team manager before the race with the full layout with the stage routes mapped out and whatnot. This was available for the 2009 page which is why they used such names as "intermediate" due to links like [http://web.archive.org/web/20090218221641/http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Giroditalia/2009/tappe_en_09.shtml this]. I emailed some person about a topic that I did not have enough info on for the 1988 Giro and got redirected to Andrew Hampsten himself he said that he mentioned that he would have to look up something in the race book, but he didn't even have it anymore. To know how they classified the stages would need the race book for official wording and whatnot because none of the articles that discuss the stages give any real particular classification of the stages. I hope that is understandable; it seemed to make sense as I wrote it...

• I'd quite like to see a column for the total ascent on each stage as well if the data is known

::None of the articles I used or looked at had any specific numbers, later years (mid 90s) of the ELM source I used had some data similar to what you want

• it is quite common to see distance vs height plots in newspaper coverage of the tour de france which help to give an overview of the stages. are the same things available for the giro? could you generate these yourself and add to the stage table? maybe some openstreetmap people would help to generate these?
• were there any prizes? JMiall₰ 23:16, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

::Im sure there was prize money, but I have not seen any sources that talk of the amounts.

and more:

• for the caption of the image of Hampsen add 'pictured here on the Tour de France in 1993'.

::Fixed.

• There are no images from 1988 in the article. Have you tried contacting anyone directly to ask if they are willing to let you use any of their photos? For example Bill Cordero on Flickr has a set of images. There's also things like [https://www.flickr.com/photos/rese_arch/2334446836/in/photolist-kTGBy1-88XWoT-892bDm-88XWyM-892bUs-fg8qot-88XVy2-892cmN-892bdd-892bj7-892c4A-892bwA-892ciJ-892c7G-88XW7H-892bPU-892bzf-892bps-892bWW-88XWP8-88XW2z-892bL3-88XWg8-4ezTGM-aTPs5-bCSciQ-892bgw-892cuY-7wvYRK-fnbFYH-7wzMNd-7wzMVo-7wvYw2-7wzMQE-7wzMHY-7wzMYb-7wzN1y-7wvYAr-7wzMDs-7wvYGK-8TLV2w-4rvg44-5oqUR9-5omD2c-9ycMyV-dYdJ5J-daL4kE-dhPXdG-4yhDHo-9Tu3Sv this] photo of Hampsten's bike. JMiall₰ 07:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::I briefly talked to the Velonews photographer who had some really good images, but he said I would have to pay for rights. Cordero's photos are also all rights reserved and would likely require money to gain access to them for personal use.

:::Yes I realise they are rights reserved and that any individual photographer may be unlikely to release photos, but this will have been such a widely photographed event that I don't think it is unrealistic that someone who has some photos might be willing to release them.

::::I shall attempt to contact Cordero.

:UPDATE: Cordero said that he had no problem with me using some photos so I uploaded two photos from his album. Got two pics from the race.

• In the race overview I would use riders' whole names on their first use as none have been mentioned in prose for a while. Then surname only after that.

::Fixed.

• 'a team time trial that stretched 40 km' - is this long for a team time trial? could be written better.

::Fixed.

• link Montedison

::Fixed.

• was the cancellation of the 11th stage important in the final result? did anyone have a big lead at the point it was cancelled?

::Not particularly, the whole peloton was together at the point and likely heading to a sprint finish.

• 'which had been polluting the Bormida river' - just checking that the italian sources say that they had definitely been polluting the river and not just that the protestors claimed this

::Fixed.

• 'and the fatigue setting in' - unecessary 'the'? or replace with 'and rider fatigue'

::Fixed.

• 'go through with the stage' -> go ahead with?

::Fixed.

• is maglia rosa the standard english term?

::Most commentators use that, but in the lead — where its first used — I have the italian-translation in the text.

• 'jumped off the front' - ?

::Fixed.

• 'eventually shook the other two riders' - i'm not keen on the language. 'shook off' would be a bit better

::Fixed.

• 'The group rolled into Innsbruck, while Franco Vona made a last minute attack' - this makes it sound like the group were taking it easy while Vona was trying

::Fixed.

• the end of the 18th stage is listed as both 'Vetriolo Terme ski station' and 'Valico del Vetriolo'. Are these the same place? Check there aren't more like this.

::Fixed.

• 'lightning began to strike and rain began to pour' - the began began makes it sound like a story

::Fixed.

• 'The final podium was rounded out' -> 'The other podium positions were filled'?

::Fixed.

• Is it possible to say concisely what was tested for in the doping controls?

::There was a list of banned substances that the UCI tested for.

• The doping section might benefit from some kind of context - did riders test positive in the giro in other years in the same period? or in other races of the same year? did any riders later admit to doping in this race?

::Yeah some riders tested positive in the Tour according to this. I added this section during the last FAN process I believe because the reviewer felt it was necessary to have it even if no one tested positive or later admitted to doping in this race.

:::I'm happy for the content to exist but the section is very short and needs bulking up a bit. Some context would help with this (and is the type of thing an encyclopedia article should be doing anyway). JMiall₰ 07:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::::After looking through the ELM pages, I found one instance of riders missing the tests and have added that. If that helps.

• link cyclamen?

::Fixed.

• 'a heavy snow cover forced the organization to skip the mountain pass from the stage route' -> 'heavy snow cover forced the organisation to omit this from the stage'?

::Fixed.

• In the Classification leadership by stage table I would be tempted to shade stage 4b in the winner column to show that this is a team not a rider's name. Also it might be useful to include the leading time margin after each stage. Might make the table a bit busy though.

::I feel that this table is fine and any adjustments would take up even more room and its almost cramped already.

• why are teams linked in only some of the final classification tables? JMiall₰ 10:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::I'll link those in a second

there is a 1988 image of Milan Jurčo who according to his article was in the 1988 Giro. JMiall₰ 16:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

::None of the sources agree with him finishing where that wiki page says he did. He did not finish the race if he started it.

Some points based google translations of the same article in other languages. I think these sound like they should be included in your article. I'm starting to think that this 14th stage needs its own section and possibly later its own article.

::When first writing the race overview the 14th stage was two paragraphs and had much of the stuff you mentioned below and I feel like to add much more detail would place too much of an emphasis on the stage, although I was considering make it it's own page at some point cause almost every article in english is solely focused on that stage.

es:

• 'Also noteworthy is the performance of Mexican Raul Alcala , co-winner of the race, which finished 14th team' - I'm not sure if they mean it was noteworthy just because Mexicans speak Spanish though.
• 'Andrew Hampsten, warned by his manager, was equipped with no less than gloves neoprene , a sweater of wool and ski goggles for this ascension'
• 'reaching ice form changes gears or brakes'
• 'Johan van der Velde , leader of the mountain to the time, and which crowned the summit first, had to stop a few miles to start the descent, unable to control the bike because of the cold, to ask your athletic director clothes and drink hot tea and brandy. Many cyclists performed the decline in their team cars finished on the bike just the last three kilometers of the stage'

it:

• 'while some went to meet the principles of frostbite'

nl:

• 'A number of riders that the entire trail aflegde, filed protest but the judges saw the incident through the fingers' JMiall₰ 18:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

in Jean-François Bernard's article it mentions that he crashed, got injured and withdrew. If this was while he still had a fair chance of winning it probably needs mentioning here. JMiall₰ 07:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

::Added.