talk:Antisemitism#Controversial usage of the term - a threefold approach

Steinschneider's 1860 entry: https://archive.org/details/HebraeischeBibliographie/Jg.%203%2C%20Nr.%20013%20%281860%29/page/n15/mode/2up

It refers to this text: https://www.digi-hub.de/viewer/image/DE-11-001657808/350/#topDocAnchor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.181.189.57 (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Following the events taking place in Israel/Palestine, there seems to be a broad re-defining of the word "antisemitism" going on around the world. From originally having meant hatred towards people of Jewish heritage, it is currently shifting to becoming synonymous with being against the conduct of the state of Israel. This should somehow be reflected in the article.

Some examples of the rebranding include:

• Benjamin Netanyahu declared that "Free Palestine" is equivalent to "Heil Hitler", and as such being anti-semitic.
• In Germany, the BDS-movement has recently been branded by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution as being anti-semitic, despite several prominent Jewish leaders and supporters.
• A Holocaust survivor, who laid down a wreath in honor of the killed Palestinians on Holocaust memorial day in London was brought to a police station for questioning.
• Similar policies are also taking place in the United States.

In essence, when it comes to the meaning of "antisemitism", the part about Jewish heritage is now being replaced with citizenship of a nation state. It is important to highlight that the redefining is actively supported, if not directed, by Israeli policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.228.19 (talk) 17:23, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

This is crude misrepresentation, and has no counterpart on the page for anti-black racism. It must be removed, as it is misrepresentation. 185.132.178.138 (talk) 00:05, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Agreed; I have removed it. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:37, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure when or why exactly this change was made, but in the opening paragraph there is this statement: "Whether antisemitism is considered a form of racism depends on the school of thought." This is, in my view, an example of forced neutrality and minimization of antisemitism. Two years ago, the statement said this: "Antisemitism is considered a form of racism". Now, instead of a declarative statement that this is the majority opinion, there is this new statement that gives both positions equal weight, and only one additional source was added to justify this.

This is just as ahistorical as claiming that "Whether the South in the Civil War were motivated by slavery depends on the school of thought." This statement is "technically" true, but it is still fundamentally wrong. The article even goes onto explain what Racial Antisemitism is, so I don't understand how someone can justify this statement. 64.228.235.81 (talk) 10:22, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:As a comparison, here is what the article on Islamophobia says about this topic: "Due to the racialized nature of Islamophobic discrimination and attacks suffered by numerous Muslims in their daily lives, several scholars have asserted that Islamophobia has explicit racist dimensions." Clearly, there was no push to make this statement more "neutral", and that's good because there's no need. The same should be happening here. This is an example of a strong statement, while the "depends on school of thought" is a weak statement that implies there's no wide consensus. 64.228.235.81 (talk) 10:34, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:: Actually, I think you misunderstand the claim that antisemitism is not a form of racism. It isn't intended as minimization but rather the opposite. Most sources which make that claim believe that antisemitism is a unique form of hatred that must not be compared to other forms. It is related to the claim (held by a strongly overlapping group of people) that the Holocaust was a unique event that must not be compared to other genocides. Whatever, we need to follow what reliable sources say. Zero^talk 11:37, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I think that claim is more understandable, but I still think it is innaccurate to say that even antisemitism during the Holocaust wasn't a form of racism. While it was unlike any other form seen in human history, and largely based on Antisemetic Tropes, the Nazis were also using scientific racism to justify their actions. They beleived that Jews were an inferior "race".

:::I also think that even if the line can't be reverted, there should be more clarity because the statement on its own is very vague. It may be better to summarize what the opposing positions are rather than leave it up to the reader to assume. There are a lot of people who appear to think antisemetism is only targeted at Judaism (mistaking antisemetism for anti-Judaism) and then use this as a way to downplay attacks on Jewish people without a religious connotation. 64.228.235.81 (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks for contributing to discussion. Comparing to Islamophobia isn’t relevant, as the content on this page only seeks to reflect reliable sources on antisemitism, not to be similar to the content of articles on ostensibly comparable concepts. Whether to study antisemitism as racism, to treat it as eternal, and other such questions really are matters of great debate and diversity of opinion among experts of antisemitism, and that should be reflected in this article. But I like your idea of summarizing the various views. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 17:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::That's fair to say. I was more just making a comparison on how the two articles present the information, I realise that Islamophobia and antisemitism are very different.

:::::In hindsight, I think you're right that showing both perspectives is important. I think it was wrong of me to say that the statement is "minimizing antisemitism", I assume that the change was made out of good faith and that there was a precedent to make the change. That being said, I think that current events bring a new precedent to the discussion.

:::::In relation to the last major attacks on Jewish people, there is a widespread narrative on the far-right and far-left that these crimes are not antisemetic. The reasoning for this in the DC shootings, for example, is that the male victim was a Christian (he was Israeli and converted, for one, but this negates that the shooter did not know the identity of his victims, he went to Jewish Museum to kill someone, and was waiting for whoever walked out of the Jewish event inside) and that they worked at an Israeli embassy in the US after Oct 7th. In this, and the most recent attack, the narrative being pushed is that so long as attackers of Jewish people are not explicitly saying "Jews" or attacking Judaism, it isn't antisemetism.

:::::My worry is that people with those kinds of notions will misinterpret the statement in question and use that to confirm this belief.

:::::I think this may work as a potential edit:

:::::"Whether antisemitism is considered a form of racism depends on the school of thought, as while antisemitism has explicit racist aspects and motivations, it is also considered to be unlike all other forms documented, and has other intersecting factors like religion, historical revisionism, and dehumaninzation."

:::::Let me know if that's acceptable or if there are issues with the suggested edit. 64.228.235.81 (talk) 16:01, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I think the perspectives on antisemitism as racism are thoroughly explained in the lead paragraph already. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 16:46, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::*The other reason there's multiple schools of thought is the Who is a Jew? question. Defining antisemitism solely as a form of racism implicitly defines Judaism by race (or, at least, some people feel that way), which means not everyone agrees that it's appropriate. It's a complicated issue which we could think about how to summarize better. That said, the entire rest of the first paragraph is already consumed with discussing this: {{tq|Whether antisemitism is considered a form of racism depends on the school of thought.[b][6][7] Antisemitic tendencies may be motivated primarily by negative sentiment towards Jews as a people or negative sentiment towards Jews with regard to Judaism. In the former case, usually known as racial antisemitism, a person's hostility is driven by the belief that Jews constitute a distinct race with inherent traits or characteristics that are repulsive or inferior to the preferred traits or characteristics within that person's society.[8] In the latter case, known as religious antisemitism, a person's hostility is driven by their religion's perception of Jews and Judaism, typically encompassing doctrines of supersession that expect or demand Jews to turn away from Judaism and submit to the religion presenting itself as Judaism's successor faith—this is a common theme within the other Abrahamic religions.[9][10] The development of racial and religious antisemitism has historically been encouraged by anti-Judaism,[11][12] which is distinct from antisemitism itself.[13]}} --Aquillion (talk) 18:01, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::*:To be clear, I wasn't trying to claim that antisemitism is solely targeted towards Jews as an ethnic group. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, so there are going to be overlaps in racism and religious descrimination. Maybe I'm looking at this in too much of an absolutist perspective: that if antisemitism can be racist, that means it is a form of racism. That may be a logical fallacy on my part. Perhaps a better phrasing would be "Whether antisemitism is considered a form of racism depends on the school of thought and context of events, as antisemitism has multiple differing (and often intersecting) motivations." Not sure if that is better or opens up more questions, but that's my suggestion. 64.228.235.81 (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2025 (UTC)