talk:Egyptian Super Cup

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{{hatnote|Transcluded from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 159#Egyptian Super Cup}}

{{#section-h:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 159|Egyptian Super Cup}}

= Requested move 14 September 2019 =

{{#section-h:Talk:2018 Egyptian Super Cup|Requested move 14 September 2019}}

= Requested move 13 March 2023 =

{{#section-h:Talk:2022 Egyptian Super Cup|Requested move 13 March 2023}}

= Continue the discussion here =

This matter has yet to be satisfactorily resolved, and is better discussed on the talk page of the main article for the topic, rather than a page that's archived faster than the issue can be settled. – wbm1058 (talk) 12:19, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Starting at the beginning, the first Egyptian Super Cup was moved on 8 November 2019 by {{U|Ben5218}} from {{no redirect|2001 Egyptian Super Cup}} to 2001–02 Egyptian Super Cup. The match was played on 14 September 2001, which was a week before the start of the 2001–02 Egyptian Premier League season. The match was between Zamalek SC, 2000–01 Egyptian Premier League champions, and Egypt Cup runner-up Ghazl El Mahalla SC.

So the question is, how do we name this first Egyptian Super Cup?

2000–01 Egyptian Super Cup, as the match pitting 2000–01 Egyptian Premier League and Egypt Cup champions/runners-up
2001–02 Egyptian Super Cup, as the opening match of the 2001–02 season
2001 Egyptian Super Cup, as the Egyptian Super Cup held in calendar year 2001 (specifically, on 14 September 2001)

I think the latter is the best solution, as it avoids the ambiguity as to whether the two-year season range means that this is the last match of the 2000–01 season or the first match of the 2001–02 season. Really, it's neither, as the date is after the end of the 2000–01 season and before the start of the 2001–02 season. The Arabic version of the article appears to just use the single year 2001 in the title, not a two-year range. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:52, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

:Support second option. In recent years (since 2017) to be exact, there were no pre-selected dates for the Egyptian Super Cup matches, and it was played during different phases of the season every year.

:For example, the match played on 21 September 2021, between the 2019–20 Egyptian Premier League champions and Egypt Cup runners-up, was postponed multiple times until it eventually took place just before the start of the 2021–22 season, so if we named it 2020 Egyptian Super Cup, it would've definitely caused confusion, simply because the match did not take place in 2020. At the same time, if we named it 2021 Egyptian Super Cup, it would be wrong, because that title should be for the match consisting of the league and cup winners from the 2020–21 season.

:Keeping all that in mind, I decided to put the season in which the match should take place in, instead of the year, because I thought that this was the only suitable solution for this case, and due to WP:CONSISTENCY, I decided to do the same to all Egyptian Super Cup matches from previous seasons. Ben5218 (talk) 05:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

::I see, so apparently the COVID-19 pandemic was responsible for delaying matches and disrupting our naming convention, or has there been scheduling inconsistency even before the pandemic started? wbm1058 (talk) 11:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

:::There was scheduling inconsistency for the competition match since 2017, and for all domestic competitions in Egypt actually since 2011 due to various reasons, but I don't think that the pandemic is one of those reasons. Ben5218 (talk) 22:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

::::{{Talk quote inline|naming the match played on 21 September 2021 to 2021 Egyptian Super Cup would be wrong, because that title should be for the match consisting of the league and cup winners from the 2020–21 season.}} – Huh? What logic? Why? Pelmeen10 (talk) 04:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::I'm sorry, but I don't understand what do you mean by "what logic?". That match was originally intended to be played in 2020, just ahead of the 2020–21 season, and by default it should be named 2020 Egyptian Super Cup, just like any other super cup tournament, while the match consisting of 2020–21 league and cup winners should be named 2021 Egyptian Super Cup. The first one was postponed and played in September 2021, and because of that, naming it 2021 Egyptian Super Cup would be wrong for these two reasons:

:::::* As mentioned before, that match was contested by the 2019–20 Egyptian Premier League champions, and 2019–20 Egypt Cup runners-up, and originally scheduled to be played in 2020 before the beginning of the 2020–21 season in Egyptian football.

:::::* The match was originally not intended to be played in 2021, and there was another Egyptian Super Cup match supposed to be played in 2021, but was postponed after the 2020–21 Egypt Cup was postponed due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and the EFA decided to play the remained of matches in 2022 rather than cancelling the tournament. This is something I forgot to mention in my previous comment, as that match (later played in October 2022) was the only super cup fixture that was affected by the pandemic.

:::::This has been happening in Egypt for almost 10 years, and this case is different from any other country, that's why I believe writing the season in which the game took place in (or ahead of) would be the best solution that can be applied to all editions of the tournament. Ben5218 (talk) 22:51, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::Should we call a Cup that happens in 2001, a "2000-01 cup" or "2001-02 cup"? Just call it "2001" and be done with it. The season it should follow or precede adds extra confusion and while that may change, the actual year it happens, is always certain. It is 1 match, 1 match per year. Seasons preciding and following are also irrelevant with the postponements coming to play. Then the options become 1)"season it should follow" 2)"season it should precede" 3)"season actually follows" 4)"season actually precedes" 5)"Option X when played in the middle of a season". And things to consider are that if the game is played closer to the ending of a season, or closer to the start of the season. It obviously makes thing way too complicated as the matches have been held in January, February, July, August, September, October. Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Regardless of other wikis that are not reliable sources, we must follow sources from third parties. Sources like RSSSF should be acceptable. In my opinion, naming the Super Cup that follows the league and the cup that season is the best proposal, because the dates of tournaments in Egypt are subject to delay, unlike many other countries. Sakiv (talk) 02:45, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

:2001 and name all articles by the year the match took place. That is the most common logic and behind all Super Cups so far. So I propose these page moves 2001–02 Egyptian Super Cup→2001 Egyptian Super Cup, 2002–03 Egyptian Super Cup→2002 Egyptian Super Cup, 2003–04 Egyptian Super Cup→2003 Egyptian Super Cup, 2004–05 Egyptian Super Cup→2004 Egyptian Super Cup, 2005–06 Egyptian Super Cup→2005 Egyptian Super Cup, 2006–07 Egyptian Super Cup→2006 Egyptian Super Cup, 2014–15 Egyptian Super Cup→2014 Egyptian Super Cup. PS: it seems this was also the most popular opinion in the previous discussions at Talk:2018 Egyptian Super Cup and Talk:2022 Egyptian Super Cup. -Pelmeen10 (talk) 04:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

::Agreed. This is done on almost all super cups around the world. (e.g. 2022 FA Community Shield, 2022 Supercoppa Italiana, 2022 DFL-Supercup, 2022 Croatian Football Super Cup, 2022 Johan Cruyff Shield the list goes on) Mwiqdoh (talk) 06:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

::Nothing require us to follow other super cups. In Egypt they have decided to follow this branding of their tournaments. Endorse xxxx-xxxx in title instead of single year which is a mess. Sakiv (talk) 11:54, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

:::It's one match, and so should just contain the year that it was held. Implying that a single match was held over 2 years is wrong. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Did you look at Supercopa de España? The 2010-11 Super Cup took place in 2012 so it's even more baffling. Sakiv (talk) 12:15, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::2010, 2011 and 2012 Supercopa de España took place on those years stated in their title. Pelmeen10 (talk) 16:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::I meant Egyptian Super Cup! Sakiv (talk) 16:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 April 2023

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. A substantial majority of !votes support this, and it seems to be backed up by logic in terms of when they took place and sourcing. — Amakuru (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

----

:2001–02 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2001 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2002–03 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2002 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2003–04 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2003 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2004–05 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2004 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2005–06 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2005 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2006–07 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2006 Egyptian Super Cup}}
:2014–15 Egyptian Super Cup → {{no redirect|2014 Egyptian Super Cup}}

– Based on the previous discussions above, most popular opinion was to name the Super Cups by the years they took place. Other Egyptian Super Cup pages were already moved with the same rationale. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:That is not true at all. Most sources I brought in mention double years. This is not going well. Sakiv (talk) 12:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Support as per the discussion above, it seems like most people other than Sakiv support these one-match tournaments having the name of the year they were in. This is WP:CONSISTENT with other football and sports events which consist of only one match. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

::Can't you read?? This is what {{ping|Ben5218}} had to say: {{tq|I believe writing the season in which the game took place in (or ahead of) would be the best solution that can be applied to all editions of the tournament}}.--Sakiv (talk) 12:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

:::That's why I said most. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:52, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources confirming the unusual branding by the Egyptian Football Association.

[https://www.egyptianleague.net/%D9%83%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8A/ Egyptian League]
[https://koraplus.com/article/48110/%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%AC-%D9%83%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8A-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B0-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%87%D8%A7-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%85-2000 Koraplus]
[https://www.rsssf.org/tablese/egysupcuphist.html RSSSF]
[https://egyptindependent.com/tickets-for-egyptian-super-cup-on-october-28-at-uae-up-to-50000-aed/ Egypt Independent] The cup played in October 2022 was the 2020–21 edition not 2021–22.

:We should not follow what other countries name their tournaments, we are here talking about an Egyptian competition. It denotes that it belongs to the season that had just finished nothing else. This should not be a problem if it's a single match.--Sakiv (talk) 12:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

[https://www.angelfire.com/ak/EgyptianSports/EgyptianSuperCup01.html] Zamalek vs Ghazl El Mahalla in 2001.
[https://www.angelfire.com/ak/EgyptianSports/EgyptianSuperCup02.html] The sources speak for themselves. That should be enough.--Sakiv (talk) 04:57, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 08:54, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Support to match e.g. 2022 FA Community Shield, being the year the match is played, not the season it relates to. Giant Snowman 08:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

::This Cup has nothing to do with the Community Shield. Two different trophies in different continents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.15.138.114 (talk) 12:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

::{{ping|GiantSnowman}} By that logic, shouldn't we change the title for the last three editions of the Supercoppa Italiana as well? The title for these matches says (2020, 2021, and 2022), but the matches actually took place in 2021, 2022, and 2023, respectively. Ben5218 (talk) 05:43, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

:::Aren't those slightly different, as they were delayed due to COVID, in the same way that the 2020 Olympics was in 2021? Giant Snowman 21:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

::::The pandemic was responsible for the postponement of the 2020 edition only, and not for the other two editions, as far as I can tell. Actually, the latest Supercoppa Italiana is referred to on the official Serie A website as [https://www.legaseriea.it/it/media/supercoppa-frecciarossa/ea-sports-supercup-2022-2023 EA Sports Supercup 2022/2023], and on the official Inter Milan website as [https://www.inter.it/en/news/2022-07-01-supercoppa-italiana-2022-2023-milan-inter-riyadh 2022/23 Supercoppa Italiana], in both websites, they refer to the match with the season it's scheduled to be played in, rather than the year, whether it was 2022 or 2023. This is the same this I did to all Egyptian Super Cup articles here on Wikipedia a while ago.

::::For other quadrennial tournaments, such as the 2020 Summer Olympics as you mentioned, and the UEFA Euro 2020 for example, they kept the year which was the tournament scheduled to be played in only due to marketing reasons, and this was announced by both tournaments' organizing parties. This is a different case, since these tournaments doesn't take place every year. Ben5218 (talk) 22:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Support we should use the year when the match is played, not to what it relates. Kante4 (talk) 10:45, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

::{{ping|Kante4}}You removed my message so I take here. You seem unlikely to respond either here. I saw that you voted in support and that is completely wrong. It seems that you are not a follower of Egyptian football, so how do you build this opinion? You should see this sources to make sure that the trophy belongs to the season that just ended. How can we explain to the reader which teams are playing if the cup is played long after the season ends. In Egypt, this is the norm.

https://www.rsssf.org/tablese/egysupcuphist.html.

https://koraplus.com/article/48110/%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%AC-%D9%83%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8A-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B0-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%87%D8%A7-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%85-2000

46.15.138.114 (talk) 12:12, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/Zamalek_On/status/1563206190636892164?t=Rprn8J1jFatv1MAKYwlrJA&s=19 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.15.138.114 (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. As I stated multiple times above, the case with the Egyptian Super Cup is unique, caused by many reasons, and the only suitable option that can be applied on all articles is to keep the titles in season format instead of including years; specifically adding the season in which the match should take place in.

:Oh, and by the way, the next match (including 2021/22 winners) will take place in May 2023, and the second participating team was just confirmed less than 10 days ago, so I think it would be definitely weird to write 2022 in the title (since the match will take place in 2023), and also wouldn't be ideal to write 2023 (since in normal cases, that title should be for the 2022/23 winners, not 2021/22). Ben5218 (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

::2022 Egyptian Super Cup took place on 28 October 2022, so the next one should be called 2023 Egyptian Super Cup. Your opinion seems to be very unique aswell, can't find a source that supports it. The fact that your opinion and Sakiv's opinion about which season to write are so different, is a perfect reason to choose the option inbetween - the year the match actually takes place. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

:::I've provided reasons why I believe the option I'm proposing is the best for this case. And for the sources, it will make things slightly more confusing due to inconsistency:

:::* For the latest match that took place in 2022, if you look at the second image [https://www.emaratalyoum.com/sports/local/2022-10-28-1.1682667 here], you will see that the tournament's official name for that edition is the 2021 SAIB Egyptian Super Cup. Here, they used the year in which the match was originally supposed to played in; they didn't name it 2022 super cup.

:::* For the match that took place in 2020, if you look at the second image [https://www.emaratalyoum.com/sports/arab-and-international/2020-02-20-1.1310530 here], you will see that the tournament's official name for that edition is the 2018–19 SAIB Egyptian Super Cup. Here, the season from which the two teams qualified for the match was used in the title; they didn't name it 2020 super cup.

:::* After the match that took place in 2017, you will see in this [https://arabic.rt.com/sport/863045-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B2%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%AC-%D8%A8%D9%83%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8A/ image] taken while Zamalek players celebrate winning the cup, that the tournament's official name for that edition is the 2016–17 SAIB Egyptian Super Cup. Here, the season in which the match took place in was used in the title; they didn't name it 2017 super cup.

:::In only five years, three different formats were used. This just confirms the inconsistency in the naming convention for the competition by the EFA. Ben5218 (talk) 23:48, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Don't forget we are talking about 2001-2014 Super Cups. Pelmeen10 (talk) 07:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::Same story, these were just some examples. [https://www.almasryalyoum.com/news/details/523531 Here], you can see that the match, which was played in 2014, was officially known as the 2014–15 Pepsi Egyptian Super Cup; the season in which the match took place in. The match that took place in 2010 was also known as the 2010–11 Etisalat Egyptian Super Cup, which can be partially seen in [https://www.el-ahly.com/images/news/79173-WRTWRE.jpg this image]. For the other tournaments, I couldn't find a clear image showing their official names. Ben5218 (talk) 22:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

:Relisting comment: Massive snag in the official naming of the events found? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

:Relisting comment: One last try per WP:IAR. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Egypt has been notified of this discussion. – Material Works 12:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Football has been notified of this discussion. – Material Works 12:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Support for consistency. I had a long think about this. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Support. It makes much or sense in the way that you have proposed it. There is no need for us to overcomplicated the titles like we currently have it. aaronneallucas (talk) 20:31, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.