Talk:Arvanites

File:Ethnographic_map_Ami_Boué,_1847.jpg

Would suggest adding a Ethnographic map Ami Boué, 1847 which shows the extend of the Albanian inhabitants in Epirus which were later incorporated into the Greek state and Hellenized. WP:AGEMATTERS doesn't apply here. WP:AGEMATTERS applies mainly to scientific and academic fields. It's absurd that this objective map is not allowed to be added. SolderUnion (talk) 14:18, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:All I am asking is you look for a more modern map. Yes, WP:AGEMATTERS applies to scientific scholarship, and ethnology, geography, and generally social anthropology are all sciences. Remsense ‥ 论 14:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::Only if new information has been brought to light and the old is contradicted. I cannot help wondering why all these restriction don't apply when a pro Greek position is added... SolderUnion (talk) 14:40, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:::No, that's not what the policy says. Old scholarship is unreliable because techniques and concepts themselves become obsolete.

:::And fair warning: if you go on any further insinuating me or other random editors whose choices you happened to not like are secretly conspiring against the Albanian people or whatever you're still going on about, I'm not going to deal with your inability to assume good faith, and preference to jump to ridiculous conclusions instead, and you really will have to go to either WP:ANI or WP:ArbCom if you want to get to the root of this 21st-century Hellenic cult you've made up. Remsense ‥ 论 14:49, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

We have some sourced critical coverage of this map from reliable modern secondary sources in our Ethnographic cartography of the Balkans in the late 19th and early 20th century article. It looks like this map has a reputation of being quite seriously flawed, even by the standards of its own time. And some of this, especially with regards to the topic of this article, the Arvanites, can indeed easily be discerned even by the non-expert eye. Boué shows the entire western half of the Greek mainland, all the way down the Gulf of Patras, as solidly Albanian, which is almost certainly wrong. Conversely, it shows only some small Albanian language islands in what everybody agrees to have been the Arvanite heartland around Attica and Boeotia – i.e. those parts of the Albanian settlement area that are really the main topic of this article. This can't be right. Without the contextualization of reliable modern sources, showing this particular map has very little value. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:34, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:I will accept that Boué's map is exaggerated. On the other side the American ethnographic map of the Balkan Peninsula is obviously wrong as the Greeks had more population in Asia Minor. Nevertheless it's added in article without criticizing it because it serves a narrative. Would suggest removing that and add Sax's and Ravenstein's which are closer to reality. SolderUnion (talk) 16:22, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

::In what world is one bad piece of data an excuse for someone to tack on another? Again, please snap out of this mindset where you're competing against other entrenched interests. If you think another map is misleading or otherwise a poor choice, feel free to challenge it on the talk page or ask the editor who added it—but preferably not interrogating them as suspected members of a cabal as you were doing earlier. Remsense ‥ 论 16:33, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::ok no problem. SolderUnion (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I have acknowledged that Boué's map seems to be exaggerated. Would like to suggest adding Sax's and Ravenstein's maps as both seem to be quite objective although in my opinion they fail show the Albanian population that was Hellenisazed by the Greek speaking orthodox church. From what I read the priests were blackmailing the Albanians not to speak Albanian because god will not hear their prayers. They could pray only in Greek... They have done the same in Macedonia... SolderUnion (talk) 17:25, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:Again, any reason we would prefer it over a more recent map? Are we going by literally any criteria other than "this boundary feels correct to me". Remsense ‥ 论 20:44, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::Because more recent maps show more recent realities (with the exception of historical maps). A map from 1950 shows the population of 1950. A 1870 map shows the population of 1870 which is important for readers to understand the evolution of the population. Recency doesn't matter in this context. The sheer fact that you're asking these kind of questions is very weird. It's like you willfully don't understand... BTW I know it's my imagination but I also see a change that you've made here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_the_Great&diff=1226444954&oldid=1226443732 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_the_Great&diff=1226444954&oldid=1226443732https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_the_Great&diff=1226444954&oldid=1226443732] You can also ask why should be quoting Polybius as he is old historian and his sayings have lesser value than modern historians. SolderUnion (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:::As far as I understand there is no justification in refusing the addition of the maps as they objectively represent the situation of the era. Can you please add them? SolderUnion (talk) 10:46, 7 May 2025 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet of User:HelenHIL. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Sax's and Ravenstein's maps don't show the regions inhabited by Arvanites, which is the topic of this article; FPaS told you this as well about Boué's map (diff), which you apparently ignored. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:40, 18 May 2025 (UTC)