Talk:B. R. Ambedkar#Requested move

Hey Wikipedians,

I’ve noticed a problem in the introduction of Dr. Ambedkar's article, specifically the phrase "headed the committee drafting the Constitution of India from the Constituent Assembly debates." This phrasing is misleading and historically inaccurate. Why is it phrased as "from the Constituent Assembly debates"? What exactly mean by that? First we should understand this that Ambedkar’s work on drafting was not derived from these debates. To more clarify, the Drafting Committee (headed by Ambedkar) first created the draft, which was then presented to the Constituent Assembly for debates and amendments if needed. Ambedkar’s primary contribution was in drafting the Constitution itself, not just participating in the debates. This phrasing definately mislead readers into thinking his role was limited to the debates when, in reality, he played a central role in drafting the Constitution.

I got very frustrated to see this little little misleading things. I actually wonder why this type of phrase is used very often here and there? What actually Editor was trying to convey to readers? I’m sorry for saying this, but certain elements of society have a long history of attempting to minimize or limit Ambedkar’s influential work and his actual achievements. No wonder this page faces vandalism and is locked. This could be an instance of such an attempt, if it was not unintentional.

I urge that the phrase 'from the Constituent Assembly debates' be removed to more accurately reflect his critical role in drafting the Constitution.

If additional details are needed, they can be expanded in the main article. Callmehelper (talk) 02:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

:This objection is right and also needed to correct the entry regarding his role in making constitution of India 2404:7C80:54:94A4:33C0:C89F:EEDD:9541 (talk) 07:43, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:These are unfortunately bigoted authors here who think they know better than the people who drafted the constitution itself. Thats wikipedia for you, dominated mostly by idiots and bigoted morons. 2409:40C0:3D:7FCC:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 09:21, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

::You don't have to come from 5 different IPs to make the same point. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 13:00, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

{{od}}

The Indian constitution is based roughly, some 70% to 80%, on the Government of India Act, 1935. Many sections of the Act were taken verbatim, including the Indian Penal Code, formulated by the 30-something Thomas Babington Macaulay more than a century earlies (ca. late 1830s). The Directive Principles of State Policy of the Indian constitution, including fundamental rights, are largely based on the Nehru Report of 1928. The preamble is based in part on the US Constitution and in part on the Irish (1937). (See also Dominion_of_India#Framing_the_new_constitution)

{{collapse top|Comparison of Irish preamble (1937) and Indian (1950)}}

Without the religious bit, the Irish Preamble says:

We, the people of Éire, ... seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

We, the people of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a sovereign democratic republic and to secure to all its citizens: justice, social, economic and political; liberty of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; equality of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all fraternity assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation; in our constituent assembly this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do hereby adopt, enact and give to ourselves this Constitution.

{{collapse bottom}}

There were many committees in the Constituent Assembly. The earliest to be created—in late 1946—were the Steering Committee, Budget Committee, Business Committee, Committee on Fundamental Rights, Order of Business committee. A President of the Assembly was elected (Rajendra Prasad), and a constitutional adviser, Sir Benegal Narsing Rau, one of the giants of constitutional jurisprudence, who had earlier drafted the Constitution of Burma, i.e. after the separation of Burma from the Raj in 1937. By early 1947, there was a States Committee to formulate the degree of federalism in the political integration of the princely states. The Partition of India was as yet not certain. Ambedkar was not in any of these committees. On 22 January 1947, Jawaharlal Nehru, as Interim Prime Minister of India proposed an Objectives Resolution, was to be readied for what was the called "Independence Day," i.e. 26 January, on which in 1930, the Indian National Congress had declared Purna Swaraj, and which later in tribute to its history, became India's Republic Day. Nehru's resolution read:

{{collapse top|Objectives Resolution proposed by Jawaharlal Nehru, 22 January 1947}}

1. This Constituent Assembly declares its firm and solemn resolve to proclaim India as an independent Sovereign Republic and to draw up for her future governance a Constitution :`
2. WHEREIN the territories that now comprise British India, the territories that now form the Indian States, and such other parts of India as are outside British India and the States as well as such other territories as are willing to be constituted into the Independent Sovereign India shall be a Union of them all; and
3. WHEREIN the said territories, whether with their present boundaries or with such others as may be determined by the Constituent Assembly and thereafter according to law of the Constitution shall possess and retain the status of autonomous units, together with residuary powers, and exercise all powers and functions of government and administration, save and except such powers and functions as are vested in or assigned to the Union, or as are inherent or implied in the Union or resulting therefrom-, and
4. WHEREIN all power and authority of the Sovereign Independent India, its constituent parts and organs of government, are derived from the people; and
5. WHEREIN shall be guaranteed and secured ;to all the people of India justice, social, economic, and political; equality of status, of opportunity, and before the law; freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship, vocation, association and action, subject to law and public morality; and
6. WHEREIN adequate safeguards shall be provided for minorities, backward and tribal areas, and depressed and other backward classes; and
7. WHEREBY shall be'-maintained the integrity of the territory of the Republic and its sovereign rights on land, sea and air according to justice and the law of civilised nations; and
8. this ancient land attain its rightful and honoured place in the world -and make its full and willing contribution to the promotion of world peace and the welfare of mankind.

{{collapse bottom}}

The first committee Ambedkar was on was the Advisory Committee, created on 24 January 1947; it had 72 members, and Ambedkar was in the subgroup representing the Scheduled Castes, along with Jagjivan Ram and five or six others (see [https://web.archive.org/web/20070625062419/http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol2p4.htm here]).

On 22 July 1947, Nehru proposed in the assembly that the Lion capital of Ashoka at Sarnath (see here and [https://web.archive.org/web/20060717022031/http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol4p7.htm here]), but without the lotus base, be the emblem of the future Republic of India, and the Wheel of Dharma on the abacus under the addorsed lions be the central visual feature of the new flag. Ambedkar had no role in that either. Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, who was also a leading member of the Constituent Assembly (representing the United Provinces, on account of his Vice-Chancellorship of the Benares Hindu University), advised Nehru.

On 29 August 1947, two weeks after India's independence, a drafting committee was selected. By that time Benegal Narsing Rau, as the Constituent Assembly's Constitutional Adviser, had prepared a first draft of the Constitution of India. This was formally presented in October 1947. The drafting committee's task was {{tq|"to scrutinise the draft of the text of the Constitution of India prepared by the Constitutional Adviser (i.e. B.N. Rau) giving effect to the decisions taken already in the Assembly and including all matters which are ancillary thereto or which have to be provided in such a Constitution, and to submit to the Assembly for consideration the text of the draft Constitution as revised by the Committee".}} This was the drafting committee's formal job description. (Scroll all the way to the bottom [https://web.archive.org/web/20060517004109/http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p10a.htm here]) Ambedkar was the head of this committee. Between October 1947 and February 1948, the drafting committee then checked, reworded, copy-edited, clarified or footnoted for further clarity, Rau's First Draft. This became the Draft Constitution of India, which was then again debated and tweaked by the Constituent Assembly Debates, and then re-tweaked by the Drafting Committee. By that time, Rau had left, and a number of the other members had either become plagued by ill-health or died, so the burden of this work fell primarily on Ambedkar. (See [https://www.constitutionofindia.net/committee-report/draft-constitution-of-india-1948/ here])

Ambedkar did stalwart work in producing the final document, especially during the last year, but none of the seminal ideas of India's constitution were his. Those were already in the British Bill of Rights, the American and Irish Constitutions, the Government of India Act, 1935 (which served as the Dominion of India's constitution from 15 August 1947 to 25th January 1950), and the Indian National Congress's Constitution (1930) based on the Nehru Report (1928), and ultimately in the many ideas, speeches and discussions of the giants of India's epic anti-colonial nationalism from 1885 to 1947. What we say in the lead is fairly accurate.

Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

:You give all those explanation which prove that ambedkar isn't the sole who wrote all the constitution. Well it's fact. We all should agree on that. That's not my problem.

:As you know whats my problems . My problems arises form the phrase "from the constituent assembly debates" . What the people think by reading it ? stick to that my point. Who comes first the drafting committee or the cosntituent assembly debates?

:You are saying there is a lot of commitee where ambedkar isn't part of , contribute a lot to the constitution of india . Which is highly true. There is a lot things allready had done by the political figures like Nehru or constitutional advisor B N Rau etc .

:Then the question come what's the need of then drafting committee ?

:It's need to scrutinized in detailed what allready had done. Just for example if you know when objective resolution was proposed by Nehru ji before way before drafting committee then in that objective resolutions starting line were like we the people of India sovereign independent republic which was change to Sovereign Democratic Republic by drafting committee , also the term like Fraternity is also add in preamble by drafting committee. Similarly a lot of changes happened to B N Rau initial draft to make a perfect draft to go for a constituent assembly debate to finalised the Constitution of India. That's the need of drafting committee to analyse previous works and if needed make changes and produce a final draft.

:Anyone who is the student of history know what part of constitution is borrowed from where and there we know what part of constitution is from British, American , Irish , Canadian etc etc. Here is not that issue. Issue is this is Ambedkar wikipedia page not constitution of india wikipedia page. Here We give that credit to ambedkar that belongs to him like chairman of drafting committee who drafted the constitution of india.

:We are not here on other topics like what all others great leaders and freedom fighters contribute for the nation building and contribute the basic foundations for constitution of india.

:Nehru ji credit will go in constitution of india topic for their immense works like nehru report, Asoka chakra, Asoka stambh , objective resolutions for preamble etc. Similarly B N RAU got all the deserving credit to him in his wikipedia page and constitution of india page.

:Please don't argue with me in that topic that what other all the Major works like freedom movement, Asoka pillar as our national emblem or Asoka chakra in our flag, preamble from objective resolutions , initial draft etc are not done by ambedkar. This is true, but This is not we are here for.

:Please understand the perspective here .

:People read the phrase" from the constituent assembly debates " and definately will be mislead by thinking that first constituent assembly debates happened then it was drafted by drafting committee. Completely reverse what was happened historically. That's my problem. If the perception of people by reading this phrase would be like oh there are multiple commitee and discussion happened before drafting committee that the phase "from the constituent assembly debates" is taking about then we wouldn't be taking about this issue. But if look at history the there is nothing like "constituent assembly debates" before drafting committee. There is nothing like hyperlink that phrase to those debates who happened before formation drafting committee. It's wasn't . And this is the difference I want to make. You will not find a single article where this type of wording " ambedkar headed the committee which drafted the constitution from constituent assembly debates" found.This is very wrong. Wording like this seems so much awkward to read. This pharse will change the whole perspective . This has to be changed.

:Please understand from my point of view.

:So much regards. Callmehelper (talk) 03:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

::If you want to be more accurate, we can say,

B. R. Ambedkar was an Indian jurist, economist, social reformer and political leader who headed the committee which produced the final draft of the Constitution of India from the debates of the Constituent Assembly of India on the first draft produced by Benegal Narsing Rau, the Assembly's Constitutional Adviser. Ambedkar served as Law and Justice minister in the first cabinet of Jawaharlal Nehru; and inspired the Dalit Buddhist movement after renouncing Hinduism.

::(Rau had already drafted the Constitution of Burma in 1937. To produce the first draft of India's constitution, Rau had traveled to Europe, the UK, Ireland, and America and met with the leading constitutional scholars of the day. Ambedkar himself said: {{Blockquote |The credit that is given to me does not really belong to me. It belongs partly to Sir B.N. Rau the Constitutional Advisor to the Constituent Assembly who prepared a rough draft of the Constitution for the consideration of the Drafting Committee.}}{{Citation| url = http://prasarbharati.gov.in/whatsnew/whatsnew_653363.pdf| title = Dr B.R. Ambedkar concluding speech in constituent assembly on November 25, 1949}})

::This is about as far as I'm prepared to go. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

:::PS I am going to bed now. Good night. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

:::I support the proposed wording. Not to forget that Ambedkar entirely [https://www.thequint.com/opinion/why-ambedkar-did-not-like-indian-constitution rejected any involvement] in the development of the constitution by 1952. - Ratnahastin (talk) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

::::Support for proposed wording isn't surprising here. As your reason is completely baseless. Not Forget, Ambedkar always was in favour of amendments and development of constitution.

::::Read the article for better clarity -

::::[https://www.thequint.com/news/india/father-of-the-indian-constitution-dr-ambedkar-wanted-to-burn-it#read-more Reference 1] [https://www.scobserver.in/journal/did-dr-ambedkar-want-to-burn-the-constitution/ Reference 2] Callmehelper (talk) 15:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

:::this discussion is going now out of hand of mine. It's now becoming again unsettled battle between B N Rau and Ambedkar which I wasn't expecting to be honest.

:::Before this argument, you are telling me about all those essential works by great leaders and all those commitee work that shaped Indian constitution. Now at the end result come as B N Rau ?

:::What about all those 22 committee made by constituent assembly for the works on different different aspects of constitution? Like Union Commission committee which deals with federal structure and governance , Fundamental Rights Committee work on Fundamental right etc etc.

:::These 22 committee works finally made a foundations of constitution that ultimately was compiled , structured by B N Rau to make an initial Draft for discussion along with his additional works which he has from different parts of world as he has constitutional expertise which help him in to draft in final shape. Then giving credit more to 22 committee rather than B N isn't a fact ?

:::What's the wrong in this if we write in the the B N Rau wikipedia page introduction as the " he initially drafted the constitution of india based on the works of 22 committee appointed by constituent assembly" ? What is wrong in that?

:::I hope you will get my point that I want to make . If this type of discussion will happen then credit never go to anyone.

:::I simply wanted that the phrase should be like that - who headed the committee drafting the constitution of india for simple and best understanding without creating any confusions.

:::Although I haven't so much issues for this now. Now it becoming more problematic. So better to leave as it is.

:::I also hope that there must be neutral wikipedian who come and see every perspective from historical point of view and solve this problem. Till then singing off.....

:::Best Regards. Callmehelper (talk) 15:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

::::That *is* the NPOV version. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

:::::It's interesting to see that you claim yourself of speaking from NPOV , yet you presented quote here in a selective manner which change its full meaning. In that Full Speech of Ambedkar acknowledges all the peoples, members etc that deserves their contributions not just B N Rau.

:::::([https://csja.gov.in/images/p1195/s_1_constitution_vision_of_Justice/Dr_Ambedkars%20speech.pdf You should read Ambedkar's full speech] )

:::::Cherry picking from that speech seems now deliberate attempt to prove own interests .

:::::Also , B N Rau allready drafted the constitution of Burma in 1937 ? Really ? [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Benegal-Narsing-Rau Check your fact].

:::::Hope you bring some intellectual honesty in your argument for healthy discussion.

:::::Best Regards. Callmehelper (talk) 04:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

::::::the fowler guy references foreign authors. Just click on the references. 2409:40C0:28:9255:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 06:42, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

{{tref}}

I am sending you an article. Please review it first, and then, if you find it appropriate, replace the first article on this website's page with it, because you have provided less information. However, if you cannot replace it entirely, that’s fine, but please update whatever can be replaced. If something cannot be replaced, then add the relevant details from what I have sent. This is my humble request to you.

Babasaheb Ambedkar (original name - Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar; 14 April 1891 – 6 December 1956), popularly known as Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. He was a fighter of struggle, social reformer, philosopher, historian, economist, jurist, educationist, politician, and interpreter of religion. He campaigned against the social discrimination faced by Dalits and also supported the rights of workers, farmers, and women. Later, he served as the Chairman of the Drafting Committee of India’s Constituent Assembly and drafted the Constitution of India, which is imbued with freedom and equality. For this reason, he is known as the 'Father of the Indian Constitution' and the 'Architect of the Constitution.' Subsequently, he became the first Law and Justice Minister of India. In 1956, he renounced Hinduism and embraced Buddhism, initiating the Buddhist revival movement in India. He was one of the architects of the Republic of India. Posthumously, in 1990, he was honored with India’s highest civilian award, the 'Bharat Ratna.' RONAKKUMAR PARMAR (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{reply|RONAKKUMAR PARMAR}} thanks for the suggestion. However the replacement you propose is not consistent with the encyclopedic and neutral tone used on wikipedia. See WP:NPOV, MOS:PEACOCK and MOS:LEDE. Instead of proposing in toto replacement of the article lede, I would recommend that you point out specific information or facts that the current article may have missed along with (ideally, high quality) reliable sources that support those statements. Keep in mind that inclusion and placement of even verifiable facts depends upon how much weight reliable sources give to that information. Abecedare (talk) 21:35, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

::Reference:

::https://ncsc.nic.in/files/review%20proforma/Life%20and%20works.pdf

::https://spentamultimedia.com/flipbooks/dr-ambedkar/english/files/assets/common/downloads/publication.pdf RONAKKUMAR PARMAR (talk) 07:24, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

I am sending you an article. Please review it first, and then, if you find it appropriate, replace the first article on this website's page with it, because you have provided less information. However, if you cannot replace it entirely, that’s fine, but please update whatever can be replaced. If something cannot be replaced, then add the relevant details from what I have sent. This is my humble request to you.

Babasaheb Ambedkar (original name - Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar; 14 April 1891 – 6 December 1956), popularly known as Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. He was a fighter of struggle, social reformer, philosopher, historian, economist, jurist, educationist, politician, and interpreter of religion. He campaigned against the social discrimination faced by Dalits and also supported the rights of workers, farmers, and women. Later, he served as the Chairman of the Drafting Committee of India’s Constituent Assembly and drafted the Constitution of India, which is imbued with freedom and equality. For this reason, he is known as the 'Father of the Indian Constitution' and the 'Architect of the Constitution.' Subsequently, he became the first Law and Justice Minister of India. In 1956, he renounced Hinduism and embraced Buddhism, initiating the Buddhist revival movement in India. He was one of the architects of the Republic of India. Posthumously, in 1990, he was honored with India’s highest civilian award, the 'Bharat Ratna.'

Reference:

[https://ncsc.nic.in/files/review%20proforma/Life%20and%20works.pdf Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar, His Life and Work published by NCERT] (PDF) uploaded on National Commission for Scheduled Castes website. [1]

[https://spentamultimedia.com/flipbooks/dr-ambedkar/english/files/assets/common/downloads/publication.pdf Bharat Ratna Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, An Intellectual Colossus, Great National Leader and Universal Champion of Human Rights published by Municipal Corporation of Greater Mumbai, Maharashtra] [2]

RONAKKUMAR PARMAR (talk) 09:43, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:Hi, I think you need to read & heed MOS:HONORIFICS:

:*{{tq|In general, honorific prefixes and suffixes should not be included, but may be discussed in the article.}} Babasaheb is an honorific.

:*It does not fit the exception that {{tq|Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English-language reliable sources without it, it should be included.}} As this {{url|1=https://www.google.com/search?q=%22B.+R.+Ambedkar%22&client=firefox-b-1-d&start=1&sa=N&biw=2304&bih=1177&dpr=1.67&num=100|2=Google search shows}}, B. R. Ambedkar can be commonly found in English-language sources.

:I believe that you also need to read & heed MOS:PEACOCK. Your phrase {{!tq|fighter of struggle}} is {{tq|used without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information.}} Peaceray (talk) 17:56, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Change the name DR.B.R AMBEDKAR 2409:40F3:20D1:3377:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{not done}} That would be a violation of the MOS:DOCTOR manual of style guideline. Peaceray (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

This seems to me unnecessary since a list of WikiProjects near the top of the Talkpage makes it obvious that the topic has more than usual notability (or in other cases not much notability). Johnsoniensis (talk) 00:33, 9 May 2025 (UTC)