Talk:Carbon accounting

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Already earlier in 2011, people argued against simply listing carbon accounting software here: "This is really not a Wikipedia article at all, just a list of adverts. There's even a link to "Follow Us on Twitter" on one of the entries!". So, instead of putting such links here, an overview on them might be more suitable. Any opinions? Ingmar.lippert (talk) 12:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

:I created a new list article, and merged the data from this article to that one: List of carbon accounting software. The new list article is discriminate, focused, structured and specific to carbon accounting software. Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:16, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• I propose to expand the article by providing an explanation of carbon and accounting; using work by Donald MacKenzie as a reference. I would also explain some of the standards used for carbon accounting. Ingmar.lippert (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It currently says "Carbon accounting is the accounting process undertaken to measure the amount of carbon dioxide equivalents that will not be released into the atmosphere as a result of Flexible Mechanisms projects under the Kyoto Protocol."

This definition seems very restricted and especially does not correspond how it is used in practice for at least two significant reasons: a) carbon accounting often refers to how many emissions are actually produced/emitted. thus, carbon accounting for emission reductions is simply a specific part of carbon accounting. b) carbon accounting relating to the Kyoto Protocol is also only one of many reasons why an organisation (like a government or a corporation or even an individual) may perform carbon accounting. If nobody reacts to this, I will rewrite the current formulation accordingly.Ingmar.lippert (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

:It seems all right at this time, in which the wording is, "One form of Carbon accounting is...", which states the Kyoto Protocol as an example (one form). Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Somebody proposed merging the page Enterprise carbon accounting with Carbon accounting. As both pages cover similar territory, this seems to make sense. Currently the two pages present quite different approaches to the topic. It would benefit the reader to have one page that reviews the technicalities and controversies around enterprise/corporate and non-corporate carbon accounting. Ingmar.lippert (talk) 19:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

{{done}} Klbrain (talk) 13:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

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{{Discussion top|result=The result of this discussion was to merge . Chidgk1 (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2021 (UTC)}}

I propose to merge Carbon emissions reporting into Carbon accounting. I think that the content in the Carbon emissions reporting article can easily be explained in the context of Carbon accounting, and the Carbon accounting article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Carbon emissions reporting will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:36, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

{{Discussion bottom}}

The maintenance template at the top of this page mentions a confusing structure and lead. In reviewing the references, it also seems like many are either out of date, don’t support the text they reference, are related to company specific promotional type pages (i.e. ecometrica), have broken links (or no links at all), or don’t meet WP:RS criteria – for example, primary sources or sources without a demonstration of vetting/peer review/editorial control. As part of the Wikipedia:Meetup/SDGs/Communication of environment SDGs project, I’m proposing that this article be restructured with updated topics and more up-to-date references. The outline shown below lists the revised themes and proposed references (including some from the current version of the article).

Sections Proposed for Modification/Elimination

There is a lot of great work that went into creating this current article, and I want to preserve as much of it as I can. There are a few sections, though, that I do propose to significantly modify or delete. These include:

• Greenhouse gas accounting and carbon accounting in corporations - I suggest that these section be combined into the “History” and “Carbon accounting drivers” sections listed in the outline below.
• Enterprise carbon accounting - I would suggest deleting this section. The principles here are very similar to those described in the GHG protocol, the Carbon Disclosure Project, TCFD, ISO 14064, and other standards mentioned in the article. In addition, there is no citation for the majority of the text in this section, and the one source cited (#15 -Groom Energy) does not appear to be a reliable source.
• Life cycle analysis of ECA - I suggest rewriting this to more closely serve as a summary of “GHG Protocol: Product Life Cycle Accounting and Reporting”, and “ISO 14067” standards.

Use of Existing References

I tried to Incorporate as many of the references from the current article that seemed appropriate. Presently, I would suggest keeping references (as of 11/29/22) # 14, 22, 24, 32 and most of the GHG protocol and ISO related references at #s 33-53 (though similar references may also work for these). The others seemed either outdated, had non-functioning links, were promotional type articles/links from specific companies, like ecoMetrica, were an academic paper that seemed somewhat off-topic for this particular article, were a source that did not seem to support the text being referenced, or were sources in other languages (i.e. #56-Ubbesen). Some older, primary source citations may justified where the article needs to reference a standard by an organization responsible for that standard, such as some of the GHG and ISO protocol citations.

Revised Outline

Below is a revised organization (excluding the lead) and updated references. This isn’t finalized text, just a list of the main elements/ideas that would be in each section (headings shown in bold, subsections are underlined), along with the relevant sources for them. The overall framework of the outline to a large extent mimics the GHG protocol framework, with its focus on corporate accounting, project accounting, and product accounting. Notes in italics indicate how current sections are incorporated into this proposal, identify “major article” or “see also” links that would appear at the top of each proposed section, as well as other minor notes related to specific components in the outline.

- - - - - - - - -Proposed Outline and References- - - - - - - - -

Lead

Outline for the lead will be included once/if there seems to be support for this proposal.

History

• 1995 IPCC guidelines four countries to report on emissions from key sectors; 1997 Kyoto protocol and procedures for carbon offset projects; 1997 BP efforts to report and reduce GHG emissions; 1998 publication safe climate sound business an action agenda by Monsanto, GM, and World Resources Institute; 2001 World Resources Institute/WBCSD collaboration and first edition of GHG protocol Note - this would incorporate the paragraph from the Cooperation: ISO, WRI, and WBCSD section ([https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0351883B132F7D44D3FC51536A1C1716/S1369525800002990a.pdf/private-standards-in-the-climate-regime-the-greenhouse-gas-protocol.pdf Greene 2010] pp.6-11)
• 2015 Paris Agreement - Article 6 and TCFD Development ([https://www.oecd.org/environment/cc/g20-climate/collapsecontents/Climate-Disclosure-Standards-Board-climate-disclosure.pdf Guthrie/CDSB 2017], pp.6-12)

Carbon accounting drivers - Note: This would incorporate some of the information in the “Greenhouse gas accounting” and “Carbon accounting in corporations”, and “Mandatory greenhouse gas reporting” sections. The existing text would be updated.

• Internal
• Managing climate change related risks, energy cost savings, preparation for regulatory requirements, impacts on corporate brand, consideration in acquisitions, evidence of corporate social responsibility . Voluntary programs in support of net zero goals. ([https://ehsdailyadvisor.blr.com/2013/02/why-you-should-participate-in-voluntary-ghg-reporting/ Condon/EHS 2017], [https://www.oecd.org/investment/internationalinvestmentagreements/WP-2012_1.pdf OECD 2012] p.27, [https://cdn.cdp.net/cdp-production/comfy/cms/files/files/000/006/049/original/CDP_Benefits_of_Disclosure_brochure_2022.pdf Carbon Disclosure Project 2022] pp.3-4, [https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards/ghg-protocol-revised.pdf GHGP Corporate Standard] Box1, [https://www.oecd.org/daf/inv/mne/Report-on-Climate-change-disclosure-in-G20-countries.pdf OECD 2015] pp18-19)
• Current extent of voluntary carbon accounting - i.e. 81% of S&P 500 reporting Scope 1 in 2020 ([https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4051948 Lopucki 2022] p.436)
• Governmental/regulatory *Main Articles: Carbon emissions trading, European Union Emissions Trading System, Clean Development Mechanism, Reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation
• Government Requirements for Corporate Accounting
• General categories: Corporate laws, environmental laws, corporate governance, market based mechanisms ([https://www.oecd.org/daf/inv/mne/Report-on-Climate-change-disclosure-in-G20-countries.pdf OECD 2015] pp.16-17)
• Over 40 countries with reporting requirements ([https://www.wri.org/insights/global-look-mandatory-greenhouse-gas-reporting-programs WRI 2015]) Examples structures include:
• UK mandatory carbon reporting ([https://www.wri.org/insights/global-look-mandatory-greenhouse-gas-reporting-programs Carbon Trust 2019], [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/environmental-reporting-guidelines-including-mandatory-greenhouse-gas-emissions-reporting-guidance Citation #14] pp.25-44, Citation #[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/652410/SECR_Consultation_-_Final_with_IA_v2.pdf 32])
• EPA GHGRP ([https://www.epa.gov/ghgreporting/learn-about-greenhouse-gas-reporting-program-ghgrp EPA 2021]) - facility rather than corporate focused
• French Law Article 173 ([https://www.oecd.org/environment/cc/g20-climate/collapsecontents/Climate-Disclosure-Standards-Board-climate-disclosure.pdf Guthrie/CDSB 2017] pp.9-10, [https://www.unepfi.org/fileadmin/documents/PRI-FrenchEnergyTransitionLaw.pdf PRI 2016] pp.7-8)
• 2022 SEC Rules ( [https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2022/05/06/secs-climate-disclosure-rules-ghg-emissions-disclosure-requirements/ Grabar 2022], [https://www.foxrothschild.com/publications/deep-dive-ghg-reporting-under-the-secs-proposed-climate-related-disclosure-rule Colvin 2022], [https://www.cadwalader.com/resources/clients-friends-memos/sec-proposes-climate-related-changes-to-regulation-s-k-and-regulation-s-x Cadwalader 2022]) Note:Possible reliable source (user generated) issues with some of these.
• GHG emissions trading Systems
• EU, CA Trading Systems ([https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/eu-emissions-trading-system-eu-ets_en EC 2022], [https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/cap-and-trade/guidance/cap_trade_overview.pdf CA-ARB 2022], [https://stillwaterassociates.com/california-cap-and-trade-101/ Stillwater 2018])
• CORSIA International Aviation Trading System ([https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CORSIA/pages/default.aspx ICAO 2022])
• Monitoring under the Clean Development Mechanism ([https://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/institutional-document/185390/mrv-manual-cdm-projects.pdf ADB 2016] pp.10-25) , now under Article 6.2 - Paris Agreement ([http://carbon-markets.env.go.jp/eng/mkt-mech/climate/paris.html Carbon Markets Express,] [https://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/418831/article6-paris-agreement.pdf ADB 2018] pp.4-7)
• Other Carbon Credit Systems
• REDD+ MRV program ([https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46952 CRS 2021] pp.9-13, [https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/10/9/943 Kim 2021] pp.2-5)

Carbon accounting/GHG Reporting frameworks and standards

• Corporate Accounting *Main Articles: ISO 14064, Task Force on Climate Related Financial Disclosures, Wikipedia-DE GHG protocol site? Note - There is a need for a GHG protocol article in WP.
• Standards include: GHG, GRI, Climate Registry, EPA GHGRP, GRESB, Petroleum Institute, Mining Metals Council, CDP Guidance, TCFD, and SASB [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4051948 (Lopucki] -pp. 425-433); general cross standard provisions described at: [https://www.oecd.org/daf/inv/mne/Report-on-Climate-change-disclosure-in-G20-countries.pdf OECD 2015] p.15
• GHG protocol Note-This section would partially be based on (with citation/text updates where needed), what is currently in the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, Reporting, and Mandatory GHG reporting sections of the article
• History/Development (Citations [https://ghgprotocol.org #37], [https://www.wri.org/initiatives/greenhouse-gas-protocol 38])
• Principles include: Relevance, Completeness, Consistency, Transparency, Accuracy ([http://pdf.wri.org/measuring-to-manage.pdf WRI2007] p.9), ([https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards/ghg-protocol-revised.pdf GHGP] p7.)
• Covers the greenhouse gases regulated under the Kyoto Protocol
• Scope 1 - all direct emissions, i.e. from sources within the corporate boundaries ([http://pdf.wri.org/measuring-to-manage.pdf WRI2007] p.21, Citation #s [http://www.ghgprotocol.org/calculation-tools/faq 44], [https://www.carbontrust.com/resources/faqs/services/scope-3-indirect-carbon-emissions 45], [https://www.epa.gov/climateleadership/scope-1-and-scope-2-inventory-guidance 46], [https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards/Scope%202%20Guidance_Final_Sept26.pdf 47])
• Scope 2 indirect emissions from externally generated and purchased electricity, steam, heat and cold ([http://pdf.wri.org/measuring-to-manage.pdf WRI2007] p.21, Citation #s [http://www.ghgprotocol.org/calculation-tools/faq 44], [https://www.carbontrust.com/resources/faqs/services/scope-3-indirect-carbon-emissions 45], [https://www.epa.gov/climateleadership/scope-1-and-scope-2-inventory-guidance 46], [https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards/Scope%202%20Guidance_Final_Sept26.pdf 47])
• Scope 3 - all other indirect emissions, including those from the manufacture, transportation of purchased goods, or distribution and use of own products, or disposal of waste. Also includes emissions from business trips (Citation [https://www.carbontrust.com/resources/faqs/services/scope-3-indirect-carbon-emissions #45]). Optional under many regulatory programs (([http://pdf.wri.org/measuring-to-manage.pdf WRI2007] p.21)
• Predominance of Scope 3 emissions within corporate sector ([https://hbr.org/2022/04/we-need-better-carbon-accounting-heres-how-to-get-there HarvBusRev 2022], Citations #s [https://www.carbontrust.com/news-and-events/insights/make-business-sense-of-scope-3 48], [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aae19a 49], [https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards_supporting/Intro_GHGP_Tech.pdf 50])
• GLEC framework for logistics sector reporting (Citation #[https://ghgprotocol.org/blog/glec-framework-universal-method-logistics-emissions-accounting 40]) - Note: should this be included?
• ISO 14064 Note-As with the GHG protocol section, this section would preserve (with citation/text updates where needed), portions of what is currently in the ISO 14064 section of the article.
• History/Development - Relation to GHG protocol ([https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0351883B132F7D44D3FC51536A1C1716/S1369525800002990a.pdf/private-standards-in-the-climate-regime-the-greenhouse-gas-protocol.pdf Green 2010] p.15)
• Parts 1, 2, and 3 (Citations #[http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=38381 34], [http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=38382 35], 36)
• Cooperation amongst ISO, WRI and WBCSD in protocol development ([https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0351883B132F7D44D3FC51536A1C1716/S1369525800002990a.pdf/private-standards-in-the-climate-regime-the-greenhouse-gas-protocol.pdf Greene 2010] pp.15-16 Note – substitutes for Citation #53)
• EPA greenhouse gas reporting protocol
• History/development - focus on facilities rather than on corporate wide accounting ([https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11754/4 CRS 2021])
• Methodologies-more specific than GHG protocol or ISO 14064 on use of monitoring systems, mass balance approach, default emission factors ([https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2017-12/documents/ghgrp_methodology_factsheet.pdf EPA 2017])
• Task force on climate related financial disclosures ([https://www.oecd.org/environment/cc/g20-climate/collapsecontents/Climate-Disclosure-Standards-Board-climate-disclosure.pdf Guthrie/CDSB 2017],pp.10-14
• History - Developments since Paris agreement, role of G20 Financial Stability Board ([https://www.fsb.org/wp-content/uploads/P141021-2.pdf FSB 2021] pp.1-4)
• Four thematic areas - governance, strategy, risk management and metrics and targets ([https://www.fsb.org/wp-content/uploads/P141021-2.pdf TCFD] p.4)
• Metrics include disclosure recommendations based on GHG Protocol framework ([https://www.fsb.org/wp-content/uploads/P141021-2.pdf FSB 2021], p.19)
• Seven principles for effective disclosures ([https://www.fsb.org/wp-content/uploads/P141021-2.pdf FSB 2021] p.8)
• Relation to materiality ([https://www.fsb.org/wp-content/uploads/P141021-2.pdf FSB 2021] p.15)
• Protocols for cities/communities
• ICLEI Community Protocol ([https://naturebasedclimate.solutions/resource-database/uscp-ghge-accounting-2019 NatureBasedClimateSolutions]), 2019 Forest and Land Use Appendix [https://icleiusa.org/communities-now-better-equipped-to-include-trees-in-climate-action-planning/ (ICLEI 2019]) GHG protocol for Cities ([https://ghgprotocol.org/greenhouse-gas-protocol-accounting-reporting-standard-cities GHG Protocol])
• Use of geographic boundaries rather than corporate boundaries.
• Six main sectors: stationary energy, transportation, waste, Industrial processes and product use (IPPU) agriculture, forestry, and other land use (AFOLU), any other emissions occurring outside the geographic boundary as a result of city activities. ([https://ghgprotocol.org/greenhouse-gas-protocol-accounting-reporting-standard-cities GHG Protocol Exec Sum]) p.4
• Reporting guidelines provide a cross reference with Scope 1, 2 and 3 from corporate reporting guide. ([https://ghgprotocol.org/greenhouse-gas-protocol-accounting-reporting-standard-cities GHG Protocol Exec Sum)] p.7
• Reporting to CDP allows cities to transparently track their progress ([https://www.cdp.net/en/cities CDP 2021], [https://data.cdp.net/Emissions/2021-City-wide-Emissions/tmta-7i7p/data CDP Portal 2021])
• Project Accounting *Main articles: Cooperative mechanisms under Article 6 of the Paris Agreement, Reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation, Verified Carbon Standard, Gold Standard (carbon offset standard)
• A mixture of standards, methodologies, and full-fledged programs ([https://www.offsetguide.org/understanding-carbon-offsets/carbon-offset-programs/protocols-standards/ Carbon offset guide])
• Four main standards - Verra’s Verified Carbon Standard, the Gold Standard, Climate Action Reserve and the American Carbon Registry. Standards and methodologies operate in an environment that includes developers, brokers and buyers ([https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesnonprofitcouncil/2021/11/10/an-overview-of-the-voluntary-carbon-market/?sh=8aa450078b1e Forbes 2021]) ([https://www.globalcarbonproject.org/global/pdf/WWF_2008_A comparison of C offset Standards.pdf WWF2008] p.11-12)
• Principles -Additional, not overestimated, permanent, not claimed by another entity, not associated with significant social or environmental harms, minimum leakage, scientific methodologies, third party verification ([https://www.offsetguide.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Carbon-Offset-Guide_3122020.pdf SEI 2020] p.18, [https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Towards-net-zero-Practical-policies-to-offset-carbon-emissions.pdf Grattan Institute 2021] pp.15-16, [https://www.onetrust.com/blog/carbon-offsets-101-guide-for-going-climate-neutral/ OneTrust 2022], [https://www.nefco.int/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NICA-Crediting-Mechanisms-Final-February-2019.pdf NICA 2019] pp.24-29, [https://www.globalcarbonproject.org/global/pdf/WWF_2008_A comparison of C offset Standards.pdf WWF2008] pp.15-19)
• Enables support of market based approach to support country NDCs, providing robust accounting is included ([https://www.goldstandard.org/sites/default/files/additionality_under_article_6.2_of_the_paris_agreement.pdf Gold 2022] p.5)
• Regulated and voluntary markets ([https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/documents/trends-voluntary-carbon-markets_1.pdf EDF 2021])
• Current state & demand - International credit mechanisms have been suffering from a lack of demand, but national/subnational markets increasing in popularity ([https://www.nefco.int/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NICA-Crediting-Mechanisms-Final-February-2019.pdf NICA 2019] p.3, [https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/publications/state-of-the-voluntary-carbon-markets-2021/ Ecosystem MarketPlace] p.3 Fig.1), with forestry projects showing highest level of growth-([https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/documents/trends-voluntary-carbon-markets_1.pdf EDF 2021])
• Main Standards
• VERRA
• Developed in 2005 - most widely used voluntary carbon standard.
• Projects covering all relevant mitigation sectors (energy, transport, waste, forestry, among others). Includes methodologies for forestry/REDD+, and CDM. ([https://verra.org/methodologies/ VERRA>Methodologies])
• Standard of choice for most forest credits generated for the voluntary carbon market, and almost all REDD+ projects. ([https://climatefocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/A-close-look-at-the-quality-of-REDD-carbon-credits-2020-V2.0.pdf Chagas et. al.] 2020 p.5)
• Additional criteria to avoid double counting, requirements of additionality, a prohibition on any negative impact on sustainable development in the local community, and requirements for monitoring based on CDM standards. ([https://www.carbonfootprint.com/vcs.html Carbon footprint])
• Gold standard
• Established in 2003, and administered by the Gold Standard Foundation.
• Open to any non-government, community-based organization, focus is on those with an interest in the promotion of sustainable development or a focus on climate and energy issues.
• Additional criteria include: stakeholder inclusivity, gender sensitivity, and contributions to a minimum of three Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) ([https://www.goldstandard.org/content/pop-make-the-right-choices Gold])
• GHG protocol for projects,
• Less prescriptive than VERRA or Gold.
• Key accounting principles include relevance, completeness, consistency, transparency, accuracy and conservativeness.
• Protocol for land use projects still in development, will cover removals, land sector emissions and removals, and biogenic products. ([https://ghgprotocol.org/sites/default/files/standards_supporting/LSR_Overview.pdf GHG Protocol 2022])
• Climate Action Reserve, American Carbon Registry - -Note–should these be discussed as well?
• Strategic Considerations in Project Accounting ([https://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2022-01/Oxford-Offsetting-Principles-2020.pdf Oxford principles])
• Cut emissions, use high quality offsets, and regularly revise offsetting strategy as best practice evolves
• Shift to carbon removal offsetting
• Coalitions forming to define consensus standards and ensure integrity of carbon credit projects ([https://icvcm.org/public-consultation/ ICVCM]), ([https://vcmintegrity.org/vcmi-claims-code-of-practice/ VCMII])

• Product accounting/product carbon footprints Note: this section would include portions of what is currently in Life cycle analysis of ECA section *Main articles: Environmental Product Declaration, Life cycle assessment
• Part of a broader set of Life Cycle Assessment approaches ([https://pre-sustainability.com/articles/product-carbon-footprint-standards-which-standard-to-choose/ DeSchryver 2022]) ([https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62030-x Meinrenken 2020]) (Citation #22)
• GHG Protocol for Products ([https://ghgprotocol.org/product-standard GHG Product Protocol], [https://www.wsp.com/en-us/insights/2022-life-cycle-assessment-and-greenhouse-gas-inventory WSP 2022])
• Similar to GHG protocol Scope 3, but focused on life cycle/value chain impacts for a specific product ([https://ghgprotocol.org/product-standard GHG Product Protocol] p.6)
• Can be used to help develop corporate Accounting Scope 3 estimates
• .Same 5 accounting principles apply as with corporate protocol ([https://ghgprotocol.org/product-standard GHG Product Protocol] p 19)
• .Steps include – setting business goals, defining analysis boundaries, calculating results, analysing uncertainties, and reporting ([https://ghgprotocol.org/product-standard GHG product protocol] p 23, Citation #24)
• ISO 14067 (ISO.org)
• Steps include goal and scope definition, inventory analysis, impact assessment, interpretation, and reporting ([https://ghgprotocol.org/product-standard GHG product protocol] p 23)

Policy aspects

• Use in Emission Trading Systems ([https://www.wri.org/insights/global-look-mandatory-greenhouse-gas-reporting-programs WRI 2015], [https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/mrr-data CA Air Resources Board])
• Use in National Emissions Inventories ([https://files.wri.org/d8/s3fs-public/wri_ghg_inventories_final.pdf WRI 2014]) ([https://www.epa.gov/ghgreporting/greenhouse-gas-reporting-program-and-us-inventory-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks EPA])
• Financial reporting requirements and investment concerns – physical risks and transition risks ([https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46766 CRS 2022], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/15/sec-climate-emissions-rule/ WA Post 2022])
• Net zero goals – ([https://ccsi.columbia.edu/news/corporate-net-zero-pledges-bad-and-ugly Columbia Univ. 2021], [https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2021/11/08/mandatory-corporate-carbon-disclosures-and-the-path-to-net-zero/ Harvard 2021])

Effectiveness and limitations

• Effectiveness
• Comparisons amongst companies/cities ([https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4051948 Lopucki] p.450), 100 companies emit 70% of global GHG emissions ([https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change Guardian 2017])
• Transparency-reporting to carbon disclosure project ([https://www.oecd.org/daf/inv/mne/Report-on-Climate-change-disclosure-in-G20-countries.pdf OECD 2015] p.36)
• Impact on GHG emission reductions - ([https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10860266221083340 Bauckloh 2022], [https://www.brookewhitcomb.com/economics/what-gets-measured-gets-managed-climate-reporting-mandate-for-publicly-traded-companies/ Brooke Whitcomb 2021])
• Impact on general corporate performance less clear - ([https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0890838917300136?token=56A64436B49D017A9B6A394D8634F0309CF98800DCBAC7FDFA2A9FE3F7197C3D092B1EE5286E5BEEEE7B57FD4EA42F0D&originRegion=us-east-1&originCreation=20221128183720 Broadstock 2017], [https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Examining-the-effect-of-managing-GHG-emissions-on-Capece-Pillo/ab773522a87b01847305c48b6eef8f37df8292bb Pillo 2017], [https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/20/13475 Bazhair 2022] p.15)
• Limitations/criticisms Note-This includes some of the information from the current Criticism section
• Corporate/cummunity accounting
• Various reporting challenges ([https://www.oecd.org/daf/inv/mne/Report-on-Climate-change-disclosure-in-G20-countries.pdf OECD 2015] p.41)
• Use of alternate standards, lack of third party verification, inconsistent boundaries for analyses, inconsistent adoption of Scope 3 estimates in corporate reports ( [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4051948 Lopucki] pp.460-462)
• Underreporting of emissions, particularly for Scope 3 – ([https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20871-0 Gurney 2021], [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/carbon-accounting-isn-t-as-rigorous-without-strong-regulations Bloomberg 2021], [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26349-x.pdf Klassen 2021])
• Double counting in supply chains (Citation [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1947343 #58-Caro2011])
• Project accounting
• Additionality for Article 6.2 projects- ([https://www.goldstandard.org/sites/default/files/additionality_under_article_6.2_of_the_paris_agreement.pdf Gold 2022])
• Double counting of project reductions – (MIT 2021, Citation [https://www.iigcc.org/resource/carbon-compass-investor-guide-to-carbon-footprinting/ #59-Raynaud2015])
• Non-permanence ([https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14693062.2021.1878009 Brander 2020])
• Products
• Cherry picking, accounting for full life cycle, inappropriate comparisons ([https://ghgprotocol.org/blog/many-companies-inaccurately-estimate-climate-benefits-their-products Russell 2019])
• Others??

Future directions

• Integration of regulatory, voluntary standards ([https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/documents/trends-voluntary-carbon-markets_1.pdf EDF 2021] p.4)
• For project accounting, net zero goals and increased focus on carbon sequestration will be major factors ([https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/documents/trends-voluntary-carbon-markets_1.pdf EDF 2021] p.3)
• Expanded use of corporate reporting in National Emissions inventories ([https://files.wri.org/d8/s3fs-public/wri_ghg_inventories_final.pdf WRI 2014]) ([https://www.epa.gov/ghgreporting/greenhouse-gas-reporting-program-and-us-inventory-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks EPA])
• Emerging approaches for improving municipal reporting/accounting ([https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac0f25/meta#references Mueller 2021])
• Enhanced scrutiny of greenwashing-for all ESG reporting ([https://www.clarkhill.com/news-events/news/esg-in-2022-and-beyond-recent-and-emerging-trends/ Salaheldin 2022])
• Use of blockchain for tracking carbon credits ([https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/building-the-potential-of-blockchain-in-voluntary-carbon-markets/ Kuralbayeva 2022], [https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/10/4021 Kim 2020])
• Potential for more integrated reporting ([https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02033-y Luers 2022])
• Others??

- - - - - - -End of Outline- - - - - - - -

Questions/request for feedback

I appreciate any feedback on this proposal, but would be specifically interested in thoughts on the following:

• Are there references/citations from the original article that should still be included here that are not listed?
• Do you see any significant concepts from the current article that don’t appear to be in this current outline, but should be?
• Is the list of topics in this outline complete? Are there topics that could be removed (for example, EPA’s GHGRP program)
• The Wikipedia.de link for the GHG protocol - there is not currently an English Wikipedia article equivalent – should a Google translate version of this article be linked to for the time being?
• For project accounting, to what extent should the article mention the transactional aspects, like registration crediting? Or should it strictly focus on the accounting/monitoring aspects? Should a short discussion of the Climate Action Reserve and American Carbon Registry be included?

Dtetta (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

:Don’t know the answers to your questions but all your hard work here looks very timely. Because the 500 largest point sources in Climate TRACE now will be thousands next year. So you doing this should help people who are checking whether companies are greenwashing or serious about being low carbon. Suggest you go full speed ahead Chidgk1 (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Pinging {{reply|Chidgk1}} and {{reply|Crisantom}} it looks like you have been significant contributors to this article over the last couple of years, so I would appreciate any thoughts you might have. Dtetta (talk) 20:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

:Thanks for that support {{u|Chidgk1}}, and for the Climate TRACE link. Will start working on the revision this week. Dtetta (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks for the ping. These are fantastic, well-thought out suggestions. For your second and third questions, I think you covered the most significant aspects of the article. As for the fourth question, that seems like something to consider. My knowledge of the topic is by no means as deep as yours but I will try to provide support when I can. - Crisantom (talk) 06:51, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

:::Thanks Crisantom for that support. Look forward to working with you on the revision. Dtetta (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Last week I contacted four experts in the field to obtain their thought and suggestions for improving on the outline above. Below are their comments.

- - - -

Comments from an expert requesting to be anonymous-12/1

Corporate/Regulatory Drivers section

• Along with mentioning SEC disclosure requirements, add the EU Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, Japan FSA’s Climate Risk Disclosure regulations, and the International Sustainability Standards Board  proposed disclosure rules.
• Include a mention of procurement related drivers, specifically: UK 2021 government procurement regulations and the US - Federal Supplier Climate Risks and Resilience Proposed Rule.
• Mention SBTI as a driver,and note that under these guidelines there are restrictions on the use of offsets.

Reporting Frameworks section

Corporate Reporting Subsection

• The Greenhouse Gas Protocol is commonly referred to as GHG Protocol.
• Remove the discussion of the GLEC framework in the corporate accounting subsection.
• Note that the GHG Protocol is developing a Land Sector and Removals Standard for its corporate reporting guidelines.

Project accounting subsection

• For the bullet regarding the GHG Project protocol - clarify that the focus is on core accounting principles and impact quantification, rather than the programmatic, transactional aspects of carbon credits. It’s not per se an issue of being less prescriptive.

Effectiveness and Limitations section

Limitations subsection

• Add concerns about the quality of carbon credits as an issue.

Future Directions section

• Second bullet - can eliminate the “For project accounting” clause, as this is a broader issue.

- - -

Comments from Derek Broekhoff, SEI – 12/6

• Suggest changing title of article to "Greenhouse gas accounting"

History and Drivers Section

• Highlight TCFD as a driver
• Consider a more prominent mention of of emission inventory accounting as an important early form of attributional accounting

Reporting Frameworks section

• Consider attributional/consequential as an organizing principle for this section, as described by Brander 2022.
• Include mention of GHG protocol Policy and Action Standard and Mitigation Goals Standard.
• Mention SBTI as an offshoot of GHG protocol, note that offsets are excluded.
• Mention ISO Carbon Neutrality standard - Combines elements of both attribution/consequential methods.
• Consider how standards in voluntary market are evolving, with new entrants coming in.

Effectiveness and Limitations section

• Include concept that Carbon offset quality exists along a continuum.
• Consider highlighting that additionality is also subjective and exists on a continuum. SEI 2020 Chapter 4 discussion of project specific and standardized criteria for evaluating is worth highlighting, along with other aspects of Chapter 4.
• Consider including concept that in order to manage Scope 3 emissions, when looking at value chain partners, it’s hard to get good data. Chains are opaque with poor traceability (transparency).

Future Directions section

• Discuss efforts to upgrade CDM protocols to be consistent with Article 6.4. COP 26, including a pathway for transitioning credits.
• How to address perennial concerns about quality of carbon - ICVCM - offshoot of Taskforce for Scaling Carbon Markets – need to shore up integrity to boost confidence and help scale up markets.
• Future trends - Describe mechanisms where company might invest in mitigation upstream i.e. a food processing company investing in sustainable ag, even if they are not sure they are getting the food from the facilities they are supporting.
• Mention carbon credit rating agency startups – not same as auditors who verify credits.

- - -

Comments from Lynn Lopucki, University of Florida-12/6

History and Drivers Section

• Include mention of renewable energy certificates per p.419-420 of [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4051948 Lopucki 2022].
• Highlight reporting and ranking, investor demand, and imminent regulation as drivers.
• Competition with EU regulatory program (SEC mentions this) – EU directive will effect 5-10% - competition amongst these programs to define market. Look at SEC and EU standards – competition as to who is being the most controlling.
• Materiality - single materiality (investors), and double materiality (public) – EU clarifies double materiality.

Effectiveness/Limitations Section

• Importance of ranking – Stakeholder Takeover Project.
• Include mention of World Benchmarking Alliance.
• Carbon disclosure project – not public information – for investors only - not transparent
• SASB and IFRS want to limit reporting to what is relevant to investors.

Future Directions section

• STP brand search app – help consumers be more knowledgeable and provide feedback to companies. My note – has there been a news article reviewing this app/program?

- - -

Comments from Michael Gillenwater – Greenhouse Gas Management Institute-12/9

History/Drivers Section

• Note the specific role of the IPCC Guidelines as a model for current protocols.

Reporting Frameworks section

• Use attribution/consequential paradigm as an organizational approach for this section. In more lay terms, attributional involves allocating emissions to responsible parties and tracking them over time, measuring what is happening. Consequential can be considered to include various interventions and decisions to change emissions.

Future Directions section

• Note the continued need to clarify what GHG accounting metrics are appropriate for what purposes.
• Integration of remote sensing and other “big data” approaches with traditional GHG inventory methods for verification purposes – Vulcan, Climate TRACE.

Dtetta (talk) 20:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

:Tomorrow I plan to post a revised lead, along with text for the history, drivers and frameworks sections per the bullet points for those sections. Dtetta (talk) 05:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

::{{reply|Chidgk1}} and {{reply|Crisantom}} - just posted revisions to the article that cover the outline up to the Project Accounting section. Revised the lead as well to reflect new article content. Some notes on this revision:

::*The organization of the drivers section is slightly different from the proposed outline. In addition, I focused the text and citations more on how they affect GHG accounting methods specifically, since that’s what this article is about.

::*I as able to used most of the text in the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and ISO 14064 sections. There I made some edits and additions, updated citations, and removed some text that seemed redundant or overly detailed.

::*I was not able to figure out how to keep much of the text in the Lifecycle Analysis of ECA section - please let me know if you think there are pieces that still belong in the article.

::*The lead does not yet reflect the policy aspect, effectiveness/limitations, or future directions portion of the revised article. I left the current last two current lead paragraphs in place, though I expect to change them significantly once the effectiveness/limitations and future directions sections are completed.Dtetta (talk) 05:08, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: On the topic of the Lifecycle analysis of ECA section. The problem I had in preserving text was that a lot of the information there seemed extraneous to carbon/greenhouse gas accounting specifically. In the revised section I tried to briefly note how the carbon/GHG accounting ideas covered in this article are part of the broader topic of lifecycle analysis(among other things), and how that’s recognized in issues such as Product Carbon Footprints, and ISO 14067 in particular, being part of a broader series of ISO standards for LCA. But there may be other aspects of the original text that are also relevant to this that I didn’t adequately capture.

::::I also still need to comb through the revised article to add wikilinks where appropriate.Dtetta (talk) 14:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::Apologies for taking so long to finish the revision. Should have the revised text for the Project Accounting subsection, as well as the Policy Aspects and Future Directions sections, posted in the next couple of days. Dtetta (talk) 17:12, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

::::::{{reply|Chidgk1}} and {{reply|Crisantom}} - I added the section on project accounting today. In order to keep the word count manageable, I did not include detailed discussion of the Climate Action Reserve and the American Carbon Registry, though they are mentioned by name in the intro paragraphs. Please let me know if you think either of these programs merits a more detailed mention in this section of the article. Plan to get to the remainder of the article later today and Monday, and still have to work on wikilinks. If anyone else wants to work on wikilinks, that would be great, otherwise I will work on that once the full article is posted:) Dtetta (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::::::And thanks, {{u|Chidgk1}}, for the work you’ve already done on removing the maintenance template, adding wikilinks, and improving sentences:) Dtetta (talk) 22:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I suspect some readers might be confused by the word “mitigates” but I don’t have a better idea for the first sentence. What do you think? Chidgk1 (talk) 10:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

:Agree. Maybe “. . . an organization emits or mitigatestakes actions to reduce? Dtetta (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

::great Chidgk1 (talk) 12:19, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I briefly defined 1 and 2 but brackets are not ideal. Perhaps moving history section to bottom would also help. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:I just noticed they are in a graphic but that text is very small so I missed it first time - other readers may too Chidgk1 (talk) 12:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Chidgk1-planning to address this with an improved graphic for the article. See my post below. Dtetta (talk) 02:17, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

{{reply|Chidgk1}} and {{reply|Crisantom}} - I’m nearly finished with my work on this revision. There’s probably a couple of subsections I will add to “Future trends”, a few edits for readibility and completeness, continued work on wikilinks, and some clean up work on a few citations. But those should be relatively minor. I will also be working on the last lead paragraph (will be sure to keep Chidgk1’s reference to Climate Trace).

So I have a few final questions/suggestions I’d be interested in your thoughts on.

• One of the expert reviewers suggested changing the title of the article from Carbon accounting to Greenhouse gas accounting. I agree with this suggestion, as some of the Kyoto protocol GHGs don't have carbon in them. - would you concur with this? Would either of you be willing to make that change in the article title, and create a splash page where Carbon accounting sends a reader to Greenhouse gas accounting (like was done for global warming to climate change)?
• I would like to use the graphic from this [https://www.wri.org/initiatives/greenhouse-gas-protocol WRI webpage] to replace the current one in the lead, but I need to work with WRI to get them to give it the appropriate Creative Commons license. I recall reading somewhere where it has a creative Commons license, but I’m not sure if it’s the right one. I prefer this graphic because it’s not as focused on life cycle issues, and clearly calls out scopes 1, 2 and 3, which are a dominant feature in much of the discussion around GHG accounting and reporting. Chidgk1 - I this might also get at the concerns you expressed in your post “Suggest Scopes 1 2 and 3 definitions moved higher up”. Does this make sense?
• One of the suggestions that is part of the Wikipedia:Meetup/SDGs/Communication of environment SDGs project is that we use long cites rather than short cites. In general I’ve found this to work fairly well. The main problem I have noticed is that when I use a long cite more than once, but with different page numbers, I am not able to use the tag. That seems to fail WP’s internal validation check if any portion of the code between the {{}} punctuation symbols is different, which is the case when you are citing different pages in a report. As a result, the reference list has repeated mentions of the same source when different pages in that report are used to reference different portions of text. I don’t know of a good way around this.

There are also some remaining content/organization issues:

• In the effectiveness subsection, should the effects on a company’s financial performance be included in the discussion?
• I am still considering adding text on the Climate Action Reserve, the American Carbon Registry, and the Global Reporting Initiative.
• Chidgk1 - I noticed you deleted the “Main article” references under the government requirements subsection. I would agree that designating these as Main articles isn’t appropriate, but I do think that they fit the “See also” designation. I personally don’t find it confusing to have several “See also” links. But I’m also OK with leaving them out if you think that’s important. They could just be part of that long list of “See also” links at the bottom of the page, which probably should be edited.
• Regarding the suggestion that the History section be moved to the bottom or the article. My main concern with this is that this particular article is not a broad based scientific article like Climate change. A History section at (or near) the start of this article helps explain how these techniques got to be the way they are, and that seems important. If you look at the Verified Carbon Standard or Gold Standard (carbon offset standard) articles, you’ll see they also start with a brief history discussion. Fracking, an unrelated article that is also about a method/technique, also has history near the top of the article. That’s why I think history should be higher up in the outline, rather than at the bottom, like it is for an article like Climate change. But I am open to other suggestions, if folks want to post an idea here on the talk page.

Thanks again with your support and editing efforts on this! Dtetta (talk) 06:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:If the below move is agreed after discussion it will have to be done by an admin I think as there is already greenhouse gas accounting Chidgk1 (talk) 06:23, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree re WRI graphic Chidgk1 (talk) 06:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:Re cites I strongly feel they should be done with Visual Editor so new and IP users can do them. I remember a year or so ago someone was working on a solution to citing the same source with different page numbers - will try and find details when I have time - feel free to ping me if I forget Chidgk1 (talk) 06:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

::At last I found the thing I was thinking of at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Book_referencing but unfortunately it has been cancelled.

::As you are the person editing the article most I suppose you get to choose the cite style. But if it was me I would prefer the Visual Editor as much as possible. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:Re govt requirements ‘see also’ or ‘further info ‘ I don’t have strong opinion. Do as you think best Chidgk1 (talk) 06:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

::Agree with use of visual editor. I did almost all the cites with that, except where I was copying a report cite and using a different page.

::Thanks for being flexible on the ‘see also’ and ‘further info’ styling.

::Thanks for looking into the same source/different pages issue. Dtetta (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

::: For the page numbers you have to add {{rp|6}} for page 6 at the end of the reference (in source editor). Then it works; I use it all the time like this. Compare for example how we have done it at the climate change mitigation article in several locations (e.g. in the lead).EMsmile (talk) 12:18, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I suspect some of the further reading could be deleted but not sure which Chidgk1 (talk) 06:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

: I had the same thought. In fact, I would delete all of it. I find "further readings" in general not all that useful when it comes to the fast changing topics of climate change. If they're good publications, they should rather be cited as in-line sources. Perhaps in general the "further reading" sections in Wikipedia article are a bit of a "left over" from the days when not all content was getting in-line citations? Not sure. EMsmile (talk) 12:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

::I think those are good suggestions. From a cursory review, the only reference from that list that I would keep is the GHG protocol, which is already cited. The input-output issue described in some of these references is briefly mentioned in a few of the citations in the article itself. But it seemed a bit too detailed to be included in the text. Let's wait and see if there are any objections to this proposal in the next few days, and, if not, I will just go ahead and delete the list. Dtetta (talk) 17:55, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I've deleted the list now as there were no further comments or objections in the last 5 days. EMsmile (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Dtetta,

Once the above rename request has been done (or rejected) I think you could nominate it per Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions. I know you want to do a bit more but a reviewer is not likely to start for months and even if they started tomorrow it is past the “quick fail” stage.

I think the main advantage of this is that the reviewer probably won’t be in the climate change project. Thus they will almost certainly pick up a lot of readability issues which we would not be able to spot because of our prior knowledge.

And you get a lovely green plus for all your hard work and 6 hours of fame on Wikipedia:Did you know Chidgk1 (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks for that suggestion {{u|Chidgk1}} - I will try to get that started later this week:) Dtetta (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

::If I remember right the rename guidelines say to wait at least a week for comments so I won’t rename until next week. It will be easier for you to wait until after rename before submitting Chidgk1 (talk) 06:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

:::Understand - thanks! Dtetta (talk) 06:45, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

::::@Dtetta As it was not renamed I think you should nominate it for good article now. As the article is extremely dry I doubt anyone will review it any time soon unless they are seeking a cure for insomnia! Chidgk1 (talk) 15:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

::::: I think it's perhaps still a bit too early for that. We don't want the reviewers to tell us things that we already know. In this case, I think the article needs some images (by the way, I don't understand why you have added that one at the end now; the caption is unclear to me). About one image per visible page would be awesome. Also the article could do with readability improvements. It's currently very hard to understand due to the use or jargon, technical terms, long sentences. - It's a fascinating topic. I currently don't have time to involve myself deeply in this. Just wanted to caution to jump to a GA review process too hastily. What could be gained from approaching reviewers already now? Or are you saying you would start the process now but while waiting for a reviewer to become available (could be weeks, months?), one continues to improve the article oneself? EMsmile (talk) 18:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

::::::The latter. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks everyone for that good discussion. Looked through Wikipedia:Good article criteria, and it seems like this article is in pretty good shape, except for the Illustration criterion. Plan to go ahead and initiate the nomination process as {{u|Chidgk1}} suggests, and will work on getting a better image for the top of the article that covers Scopes 1, 2 and 3 at the same time. Dtetta (talk) 16:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

{{od}}

Just initiated the nomination process with an edit at the top of this page. Thanks for that suggestion {{u|Chidgk1}}! Dtetta (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I noticed that the German Wikipedia version has a different first sentence in the lead (translated): {{tq|Carbon accounting describes the systematic recording, monetary and non-monetary evaluation and monitoring of direct and indirect emissions of CO ₂ and other greenhouse gases.}} This is quite different to our first sentence of {{tq|Greenhouse gas accounting or carbon accounting is a framework of methods to measure and track how much greenhouse gas (GHG) an organization emits.}} Which source do we use that limits the definition of carbon accounting to just organizations? Might be useful to add that source to the first sentence (leads don't have to use in-line citations, although I think more and more they do use inline citations - those are also useful when leads are transcribed by use of excerpts). This lead currently uses only one in-line citation. EMsmile (talk) 13:08, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

:Done Chidgk1 (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

::Thanks for doing that {{u|Chidgk1}}! I think I noted in my post “ Notes on Current Revision (1/1/23)” that I still had work to do on citations and the lead. Agree that there are probably some additional citations needed for the lead - so far my focus there has been on readability. Plan to work on that over the next couple of days. And although it's nice to get a perspective from other language versions (I had proposed in my outline a link to a google translate version of the WP.de article on Greenhouse Gas protocol), that particular sentence has a Flesch-Kincaid reading level of over 20-Yikes! Dtetta (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

::The GHG protocol Corporate standard also uses the work "organization" repeatedly, but Chidgk1's citation works fine in this instance. Dtetta (talk) 14:50, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

::: Just a minor point: I am a little bit surprised surprised you added a new publication, User:Chidgk1 rather than be able to reuse one that had already been used in the article. Is the one that you added really a highly reliable source (secondary preferred)? If so, I am surprised it is only cited once in the article. Just wondering. Interestingly, it is the only ref in the list now that mentions "carbon accounting" whereas all the others mention "greenhouse gas accounting". EMsmile (talk) 13:07, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::: Secondly: does that mean that the intro sentences in the German Wikipedia (which does not limit it to organisation) is wrong? It says there (after translation to English with Google Translate; bolding added by me): {{tq|Carbon accounting describes the systematic recording, monetary and non-monetary evaluation and monitoring of direct and indirect emissions of CO ₂ and other greenhouse gases.  This can be done at product or project level, at company level or at state level to create a greenhouse gas balance sheet.}} Or is it possible that different definitions have been used in the literature? I see on Google that most of the hits limit it to organisations (or even just products) but occasionally the definition given includes also "organisations and countries". If there are different definitions in the literature then I would recommend to add a new section called "definitions" where this is explained. I find that quite useful. We did that also for the climate change mitigation article, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_mitigation#Definitions_and_scope. EMsmile (talk) 13:07, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::::I don’t think it’s wrong, it just sidesteps that aspect. Dtetta (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Like I mentioned above (see the section Notes on Current Revision (1/1/23)), the page numbers should be added with the rp-template, e.g. {{rp|6}}. As far as I can see, this is becoming the standard for all articles with the long citation style. The long citation style is also becoming more common than the short citation style, at least within WikiProject Climate Change (see also here). It overcomes the problem of having to list the same ref several times in the article. So I think it should be implemented now. EMsmile (talk) 12:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:I disagree strongly - I think the rp snippet approach is a poor choice. I used it for the ocean acidification article, and was very dissatisfied with the way the text looked. I don’t know how we can expect a reader to easily understand the reference page being referred to when there is an adjacent, small, unclear page number next to the citation number. I certainly wouldn’t understand what that meant if I just came upon it when reading an article, and I read a lot of wikipedia articles. I don’t see this done in any scientific literature that I have read. For the time being, I think a much better way to deal with paginated reports that are used multiple times is to use short cites, with a “reports cited” section at the bottom of the article, as is done on the main climate page article, and other GA articles (as was pointed out in the Wikipedia talk:IPCC citation/AR6 discussion you referred to). Longer term, this seems like a WP tech support (or village pump) issue. The WP techies should be able to create a citation bot (they already have several) that can look at two long form report citations that are identical except for page number, and create some type of Ibid format where the citation in the reference list just shows the title and year (with a link of course), and then the page number. Dtetta (talk) 16:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:: The rp syntax seems to be the recommended way that Wikipedia offers for the long ref style. I am surprised you dislike it so much. Readers are free to click on it or to ignore it. They can hover over it to find out what it is. Until the tech people come up with a different solution, it's the only way that avoids repeating the same ref multiple times in the ref list. The short ref style has its own disadvantages which I've written about earlier but can repeat: it's very very difficult to use for newbies. It does not work well when text blocks are moved from one article to another. I remember now that we had a discussion about it here already. There seemed to be no objections to using the rp style there. If you want, we can try to re-start the discussion there? Could be good to reach consensus so that the climate change articles follow a consistent style. EMsmile (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I've now written on the talk page of WikiProject CC about this as I see it as a broader issue, not specific to this article. Would be nice to be consistent across climate change articles. Let's see if anyone else has an opinion about it. EMsmile (talk) 16:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:: By the way, there are lots of articles that use the rp syntax, see e.g. climate change mitigation, climate change adaptation. A tool tip appears when people hover over it. And Wikipedia is not the same as a scientific publication so just because scientific publications don't do it like this is not an issue, in my opinion. EMsmile (talk) 16:26, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::It’s clear you have talked about it and used it a number of times (including on those pages you mention), but I don’t see broad support for it. The Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Climate change link you referred in saying we discussed it wasn’t really a discussion, it was just a number of posts by you, with me adding one point of reference. That was before I began using it for the OA article. I now regret that choice. It will be interesting to see if you get any responses on WikiProject Climate to support your proposal. Dtetta (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: That may be so. However, my experience with trying to start discussions amongst Wikipedians is this: if they don't reply to an invitation to discuss something then they don't feel strongly about it, or at least don't object to it. Meaning in this case: they don't object to me using the standard rp syntax style. Let's see if a consensus emerges and see what others think. Until the IT team comes up with a different solution, I think the rp syntax is the only workable solution we have for the long ref style. Having multiple entries for the same ref in a ref list is not elegant in my opinion. EMsmile (talk) 17:04, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::I don't have a strong opinion, but just wanted to say that the rp citation variant is not the recommended variant. In fact, it's much less used than sfn. In case of disagreement about the citation style, the old status quo is to be followed (WP:CITEVAR). —Femke 🐦 (talk) 17:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::: The old status quo for this article is to use the long ref style (at least going back to say 2015, or how far back does one have to check?)? So as per WP:CITEVAR, we continue to use long ref style, right? And in long ref style, the page numbers should be added with the rp citation variant, or am I mistaken? Perhaps there is another method on how to add page numbers that I am not aware of? Currently the page numbers are added in the references list which leads to the same publication being shown multiple times in the ref list. That's what I find problematic. The rp syntax would avoid this. EMsmile (talk) 18:29, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::::As I recall, the article citations in the earlier version were almost all referencing web sites or journal articles, where a long form citation is certainly appropriate and easier. I don’t think any of them cited different pages in a paginated report to cite different parts of the text (and they certainly did not use the rp code snippet approach), so I don’t think they are a useful reference for going forward on this topic. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citing_multiple_pages_of_the_same_source Citing multiple pages of the same source] subsection of WP:CS lists two realistic options for taking a reader to different pages in a document where that document is used multiple times: 1)the rp code approach, which, as I have mentioned above, creates strange looking, hard to understand citations, like current citation 19 in the Ocean Acidification article (which I unfortunately created, but would not do again); and 2)short cites. As part of applying for GA status for this article, my suggestion is to convert those instances where multiple pages of a report are cited in different text locations to short cites. It would be nice if the WP tech group could create a bot that would resolve this in an Ibid type fashion when you are copying long cites and just changing the page number, but in the mean time I believe short cites would better comport with GA standards, as Femke previously noted at Wikipedia talk:IPCC citation/AR6. Dtetta (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::::I also see that WP:CS mentions rp only twice, once in the context I mentioned above, and another in the context of linking to a google books source. There is nothing in this guidance, as far as I can tell, that would suggest it as a general practice for citations. Dtetta (talk) 06:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:::::::: My understanding of WP:CITEVAR is that it should be either all short refs or all long refs but not a mixture of both (just like with WP:ENGVAR); see also a comment by Femke here which I interpreted to say that (Femke said: "The long-style is already the default in the article. No need to post on talk to tidy up the single citations that's in a different style."). There is no guidance anywhere that a "good article" needs to use short ref style. Anyway, I guess Femke is telling us we should not worry too much about it. If you don't like the rp syntax then don't use it. I will continue to use it as I like it. People are different. For the carbon accounting article, we can leave things as it is. Of the repeated refs there is Fong 2021 six times, Bhatia four times, Rich and Bhatia three times etc. Doesn't matter, I don't think our readers will really care that much. So I am happy to agree to disagree on this one and move on. EMsmile (talk) 11:36, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

This is likely down to personal preference but I personally would prefer to either move the history section towards the end of the article (as I find it less important) or to rename it to something like "Origin", "Development" or "Rationale" (in which case it could stay there, I guess):

• I find "history" is more for something that goes back decades or centuries and does not need to occupy the glory spot of being the first thing a reader finds after the lead. I think the reader should straight away be presented with "what is it" (definition, components), "what is it used for", "what are problems with it" and towards the end "who developed it and when". Compare also with the other climate change articles, most of which don't have such a dedicated history section at the very start of the article (the ones mentioned below might be exceptions to the rule, and could also be changed; we might be better off comparing with WP:GA or WP:FA articles in the climate change grouping; they can be accessed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Climate_change#Metrics).
• Noting previous comment by Chidgk1 above who said "Perhaps moving history section to bottom would also help." And comment by Dtetta who said {{tq|Regarding the suggestion that the History section be moved to the bottom or the article. My main concern with this is that this particular article is not a broad based scientific article like Climate change. A History section at (or near) the start of this article helps explain how these techniques got to be the way they are, and that seems important. If you look at the Verified Carbon Standard or Gold Standard (carbon offset standard) articles, you’ll see they also start with a brief history discussion. Fracking, an unrelated article that is also about a method/technique, also has history near the top of the article. That’s why I think history should be higher up in the outline, rather than at the bottom, like it is for an article like Climate change. But I am open to other suggestions, if folks want to post an idea here on the talk page.}}

Like I said, it might be down to personal preference. Happy to receive further inputs and thoughts on this. EMsmile (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::Appreciate your citing my reasons for keeping it at or near the top, which remains my recommendation. Another option would be to reword “History” to focus more clearly on just those events that are most clearly tied to how the current standards and frameworks come to be the way they are. Dtetta (talk) 16:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::: With that, do you mean changing the section title from "History" to something else? That would also be my recommendation. But not sure if I understood you correctly? EMsmile (talk) 16:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::::Yes, I would support some of the other wording options you’ve suggested. Again, in analogous situations “History” is used, but I’m fine with considering other word choices, such as “Origin” or “Development”. Dtetta (talk) 16:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

::::And I see I wasn’t clear in my earlier comment - I meant that one option to resolve this issue would be to edit the contents of the history section to make the connection between events since 1995 and the current features of the present standards more apparent, and perhaps edit out some tangential information. Dtetta (talk) 06:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

::::An example would be to address a concern I believe Chidgk1 mentioned, which would be to highlight the Scope 1, 2 and 3 features of the standards more prominently in the history (or at least earlier in the article). Dtetta (talk) 06:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

{{u|Chidgk1}} and {{u|EMsmile}} - Looked at ways of modifying the history section to remove extraneous information and focus it more on the key events that led to current standards. Below is a strikeout/underline presentation of the text revision I would propose. In addition to cutting out some of the text, I included a brief description of Scopes 1, 2, and 3. This revision covers the first three paragraphs.

Nothing jumped out at me in the fourth paragraph merited taking out, but I think the last paragraph (about the growth to the present of GHG accounting and reporting)  could be moved into the “Future trends” section, with that section then retitled “Recent trends” perhaps. Let me know if you think this addresses your concerns, if you think other text could be removed to still focus it more, or if you would still rather see this section placed further down in the article. Thanks. Reference numbers are the same as what’s in the current article.

- - - -

HistoryOrigins

Initial efforts to create greenhouse gas (GHG) accounting methods were done largely at the national level. In 1995 the Framework Convention on Climate Change (FCCC) required Annex 1 (generally developed) countries to report annually on their emissions for six industrial categories. That same year the FCCC piloted a program where countries could experiment with carbon offset projects. In 1997 the Kyoto protocol created a carbon offset program called the Clean Development Mechanism, and alsodefined the greenhouse gases that are the central focus of greenhouse gas accounting methods: carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, nitrogen trifluoride, hydrofluorocarbons and perfluorocarbons. These actions raised awareness about the importance of accurate GHG emission estimates and the need for measuring the amount of GHG reductions from offset projects.[4][5]

In 1998 the “Safe Climate Sound Business: An Action Agenda” challenged businesses to measure, track and openly report greenhouse gas emissions from their operations. That year the World Resources Institute (WRI) and World Business Council for Sustainable Development (WBCSD) initiated a multi stakeholder process to develop a protocol to support this goal. The first edition of the Greenhouse Gas Protocol was published in September 2001, and included over 200 organizations in its development.[6] It establishes a comprehensive, global, standardized framework for measuring and managing emissions from private and public sector operations, value chains, products, cities, and policies.[7] The protocol divides an organization’s emissions into three different categories. Scope 1 emissions include direct emissions from facilities. Scope 2 covers indirect emissions from electricity use, and Scope 3 covers other indirect emissions. [45]p25

Other initiatives since that time NGOs have also played a role in driving corporate and community participation in GHG accounting. The Carbon Disclosure Project (CDP) was founded in the UK in 2002, and started with 35 investors signing a request for environmental information, and  245 companies responding. It is now a multinational organization with thousands of organizations companies disclosing their GHG emissions, along with other data.[8] The Science Based Targets Initiative (SBTi) was formed in 2015 as a collaboration between CDP, WRI, the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF), and the United Nations Global Compact (UNGC). Its with the goal is to establish science-based environmental target setting as a standard corporate practice. It has continued the trend of incorporating GHG accounting protocols into broader efforts to reduce emissions. [9]

- - - -

If you do still want it further down, IMO we would need to rethink the intro - starting with GHG accounting Drivers seems abrupt to me, but you all might see it differently. Dtetta (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

:Your new text is better than before I think Chidgk1 (talk) 15:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

:: Yes, I agree with Chidgk1 and would say just go ahead and implement those. What still confuses me a little bit is this sentence: "were done largely at the national level", perhaps you could clarify the wording - I guess it's supposed to mean taking all the businesses in the entire country? Later it talks about "community participation" - you could maybe give some examples for that. Are you referring to efforts by NGOs to make organisations more accountable? EMsmile (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

:::Regarding the term “national level”, the second sentence I think pretty much explains that term. Can’t think of a better way of phrasing it, but if you have a better phrasing for that clause, feel free to make that edit once I post this text. Regarding the use of the word “communities”, I think that’s a good observation. However, both the Global Protocol for Community-Scale Greenhouse Gas Inventories, as well as the ICLEI Community protocol, use the term community. Have spent some time thinking about it, and I agree with you that it’s a somewhat vague term, but that is the language that those protocols are using, so I’m being true to that and using that word in this section as well as in the main text of the article. In the heading for this part of the article I use the term cities/communities. So I could change to that in the lead as well, I guess, but that would not be my first choice. What these protocols are referring to is sub national (in particular sub state) governments like cities and counties in the US. Once you get to the state level and above, the approach is typically more of a top down one, as is done with national inventories. As I understand it, the terms local governments, cities, and communities are used interchangeably in this context. Dtetta (talk) 15:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Didn see the principal tag with a dedicated thread. Besides the titular point, the commonly accepted name of the thing is 'Carbon Accounting' and the proposed change looks like wiki cray cray. Lycurgus (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:OTOH, the article currently treats the superset. Recommendation: Leave this the mainspace title, establish a redirect here from GHG Accounting, and reverse the order of the boldeds in the first sentence of the lede. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 15:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:I see the redirect is already in place. Nice to see there's automation on the movement of the back matter, a complaint/pet peeve of mine in the past. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:Also maybe a mention of how much of GHG is carbon, if not already present, and if so should be in suggested lede open. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 15:24, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:Noting 'carbon' is a clsss, and the non carbon GHG's are I suspect negligible. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

::I wanted to make a pun with ‘laughing gas’ but I am too old to understand the

::current usage of ‘lol’.

::Unfortunately Nitrous oxide#Greenhouse effect is significant Chidgk1 (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:::@Chidgk1 Noted, presume that's the major non hydrocarbon. Lycurgus (talk) 13:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

:{{Ping|Lycurgus}} If you or anyone else want your opinion counted please comment in the rename discussion above - I cannot count it from here otherwise anyone looking at the rename discussion in future will be confused. Please comment soon as I will close the rename discussion soon - maybe tomorrow Chidgk1 (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:@User:Lycurgus could you please explain what you mean here with "wiki cray cray" - I assume it means crazy but in which sense crazy? EMsmile (talk) 11:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::@EMsmile Young Dolph is who google credits with the term, it has associations with American conservatives in the doubled form in my mind, I only use it for facetious effect, in this case to refer to the social process in enwiki that produces the site product. While I appreciate and have extensively and more or less successfully contributed in the past within that process, I nonetheless often find it galling, which affect is expressed humorously with the term. I certainly don't mean to imply actual mental illness, just compromised intellectual integrity. Lycurgus (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

:@User:Chidgk1: I am not sure how exactly all the processes work but shouldn't it be an uninvolved editor who closes the discussion? And not so quickly either since it's just been relisted, it seems? Or perhaps the person who proposed a move is allowed to close the discussion if they cancel their own proposal. Either way, I think the discussion has not yet reached conclusion, it would be good to hear from more people still (I've posted about it on the WikiProject Climate Change talk page but no reaction from that so far, I think). I feel like there might be more arguments for or against a move which we haven't unearthed yet. EMsmile (talk) 11:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::I closed the second discussion because if the rename discussion is in 2 sections it would be very hard for future editors to look back at it. However your method of moving it as a subsection of the first discussion may work - I have never tried that before. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:01, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I was referring to you saying that you'd close the first discussion though. This should be done by an uninvolved editor, I think. And there is no need to rush it. EMsmile (talk) 13:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::::Yes I got mixed up with other stuff - you are right it is supposed to be uninvolved editor closing this. By the way I just checked the environment project and it was also automatically notified there the same as our project. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:30, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

: P.S. should we ping some of the people who are normally active on CC topics? I don't want to come across as "intruding" though. EMsmile (talk) 11:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

::I don’t use this renaming template often but I had to here because I am not an admin so cannot rename over a redirect. I usually manually ping the projects and a couple of recent editors but this template may do some auto pinging - will check. Meanwhile feel free to ping anyone Chidgk1 (talk) 13:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)