Talk:Chernihiv Governorate#Merger proposal

{{WikiProject banner shell|1=

}}

Merger proposal

{{Discussion top|result=To merge Chernigov Governorate into the more modern Chernihiv Governorate given their historical continuity, for context and given the short text; the question of final name (Governnorate or similar) remains unresolved. Klbrain (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)}}

I propose merging Chernigov Governorate into Chernihiv Governorate. The subject of both articles is the single region of Ukraine, separated by the 1917 collapse of the Russian empire. This is inconsistent with articles about the other eight Ukrainian gubernias: Katerynoslav Governorate, Kiev Governorate, Kharkiv Governorate, Kherson Governorate, Podolia Governorate, Poltava Governorate, and Volhynia Governorate. —Michael Z. 23:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, but I believe the most common name would be Chernigov Governorate. Ymblanter (talk) 09:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

::I believe gubernia, province, and government are all more commonly used than governorate.

::In a Ukrainian context, Chernihiv may be more common, and this should be considered since this was one of the nine Ukrainian gubernias of the Russian Empire, and was more recently in the Ukrainian People’s Republic and the Ukrainian SSR.

::You’re right that we should consider the name. —Michael Z. 17:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

:::Google Advanced Book Search results, no date filter. The “province” results probably include many references to a different subject, Chernihiv oblast, 1932–present. We could also consider limiting the search to recent sources, or by subject.

:::* "Chernigov Province" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+province%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsamEfgxSQLggQ12QctOZFgaMxMdQQ:1663348305704&ei=Ua4kY5vCKreZptQP-sSLoA8&start=460&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjbrpin55n6AhW3jIkEHXriAvQ41gMQ8dMDegQIARBD&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 47 of about 249,000 results]

:::* "Chernihiv Province" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+province%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsYDXI-mlNrG_m7eibX1RJotj4IjPA:1663348225680&ei=Aa4kY4qcKZHZptQPwOOtuAM&start=300&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjKoISB55n6AhWRrIkEHcBxCzc4-gEQ8tMDegQIARBh&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 31 of about 21,800 results]

:::* "Chernihiv Gubernia" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+gubernia%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsaUYRVnT_moAysVcZajrcZwwvmSbw:1663348212732&ei=9K0kY7yOLK2ZptQPorG7oAc&start=200&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwi82O365pn6AhWtjIkEHaLYDnQ40gEQ8dMDegQIARBD&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 21 of about 13,500 results]

:::* "Chernigov Government" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+government%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsa2EvloNCaTQ6rqFhRQzatt-NE6DQ:1663348328315&ei=aK4kY5brEvXWptQPho2UiAE&start=180&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiWv_yx55n6AhV1q4kEHYYGBRE4vgEQ8dMDegQIARBD&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 19 of about 7,430 results]

:::* "Chernigov Gubernia" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+gubernia%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsZertKyeurgXebBA0MdgzaSZN8KyQ:1663348282888&ei=Oq4kY7XnNZykptQPv4264AM&start=160&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwi17Kec55n6AhUckokEHb-GDjw4qgEQ8dMDegQIARBD&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 17 of about 4,630 results]

:::* "Chernigov guberniia" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+guberniia%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsb2xLLJgmMa3e9fElzXcuTQmqKnuQ:1663450284044&ei=rDwmY8SSAuCuptQPtfSMoAg&start=130&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjEmKCa45z6AhVgl4kEHTU6A4Q4jAEQ8dMDegQIARBD&biw=1173&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 14 of about 3,030 results]

:::* "Chernigov guberniya" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+guberniya%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsa2d6dDAqraxFMQqyFnmVKZY2zXyA:1663450259391&ei=kzwmY8q_F_SmptQPx8mTiAY&start=80&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiK1b-O45z6AhV0k4kEHcfkBGE4RhDw0wN6BAgBEGU&biw=1173&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 9 of about 1,110 results]

:::* "Chernigov Governorate" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernigov+governorate%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsYtP8oq6UcQCe5obKvl11DkREJXJQ:1663348339025&ei=c64kY916yIim1A-f9KjAAg&start=60&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwidgIq355n6AhVIhIkEHR86Cig4RhDx0wN6BAgBEEM&biw=1210&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 7 of about 623 results]

:::* "Chernihiv guberniia" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+guberniia%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsbkGOgoVBbRu1PiQ5s8XwuJx51VGg:1663450239891&ei=fzwmY6T4NeCeptQPybmQ6AM&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjks5mF45z6AhVgj4kEHckcBD0Q8NMDegQIARBH&biw=1173&bih=1312&dpr=2 Page 2 of about 34 results]

:::* "Chernihiv Governorate" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+governorate%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsaLikOK2VVYVsOgulLWltE6oTKaww%3A1663348135060&ei=p60kY8ehA5qIptQP4euhkA0&ved=0ahUKEwiHkenV5pn6AhUahIkEHeF1CNIQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq=%22Chernihiv+governorate%22+-Wikipedia&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzEANQyD9Y-E1guk9oAHAAeACAAf4BiAHoDpIBBjAuMTEuMpgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-books 10 results]

:::* "Chernihiv guberniya" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+guberniya%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&biw=1173&bih=1312&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsb6fwhAzcbzcYMck3afFFgrmDz8zA%3A1663450218949&ei=ajwmY5ewOd6gptQPhfyhwA0&ved=0ahUKEwiXjZv74pz6AhVekIkEHQV-CNg4yAEQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq=%22Chernihiv+guberniya%22+-Wikipedia&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzEANQvARYvARgpAdoAHAAeACAAeYBiAH3ApIBBTAuMS4xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-books 8 results]

:::* "Chernihiv Government" [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chernihiv+government%22+-Wikipedia&lr=lang_en&biw=1210&bih=1312&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsYeHM5HEKSap4cevhD_hO8u9qJbcA%3A1663350269313&ei=_bUkY-fTEsvaptQP7Y2FgAI&ved=0ahUKEwinxsHP7pn6AhVLrYkEHe1GASA4uAMQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq=%22Chernihiv+government%22+-Wikipedia&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzEANQjgZYowxgxw5oAHAAeACAAf4BiAHqA5IBBTAuMi4xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-books No results found for "Chernihiv government" -Wikipedia]

::: —Michael Z. 17:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

::::N.B.: Google’s total “results” number is bogus. The actual results are listed 10 per page. —Michael Z. 18:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

:::: Edit: added results for spellings guberniia and guberniya. —Michael Z. 21:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

:I just realized the articles are actually split not at the Russian revolution, but in April 1918, with the Russian empire and Ukrainian People’s Republic under the Central Rada in the one, and under Skoropadsky’s Ukrainian State, the Ukrainian Directorate, and the Ukrainian SSR in the other. I suppose there’s a logical rationale, but I think the case for merging is much more solid. —Michael Z. 17:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

:{{merge done}} Klbrain (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

::Merge was a good idea, wrong direction though. I'm gonna merge it back into Chernigov Governorate and make Chernihiv the redirect.

::~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 02:51, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Use of information in article, [[The Norka]]

Geographical information from Chernihiv Governorate comparing boundaries of Chernihiv Governorate with modern day boundaries was used in the article, The Norka. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 February 2025

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 07:29, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

----

:Chernihiv Governorate → {{no redirect|Chernigov Governorate}} – Reasons are the following:

Most content in the article is about Chernigov Governorate as part of the Russian Empire, Chernihiv mainly had a second infobox fsr, which I merged together.
For the longest period (1802-1917/8), it was known as Chernigov Governorate.
* Same story with the name of the capital, [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Chernigov%2CChernihiv&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 according to Google Ngrams]. (There are no Ngrams for the governorates, sadly.)
The rename makes the title consistent with articles of other governorates of both the RE and Ukrainian successor states (Kharkov Governorate, Kiev Governorate, Podolia Governorate and Yekaterinoslav Governorate).
Most wikilinks to the governorate are to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Chernigov_Governorate&limit=500&hidetrans=1&hideredirs=1 Chernigov] not [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Chernihiv_Governorate&limit=500&hidetrans=1&hideredirs=1 Chernihiv], because they are referring to the governorate during imperial times, not the short civil war period.
* See also the [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/redirectviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-20&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&page=Chernihiv%20Governorate page views per redirect].
On other Wikipedias (except the Ukrainian one obviously) and Wikidata, it's named Chernigov Governorate or a similar Russian-based transl(iter)ation.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 00:59, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Support per nom. — AjaxSmack 01:13, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
Support, see above Ymblanter (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
Support per above. For most of its history, it was an administrative division of Imperial Russia. Mellk (talk) 07:05, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

:Pings: @Klbrain @Michael Z. ~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 19:34, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.