Talk:G-class Melbourne tram#Requested move 22 December 2023

{{DYK talk|13 November|2022|entry=... that the Victoria State Government has ordered 100 G-class trams, which is the largest domestic order in Australian history?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/G-Class Melbourne tram}}

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|

{{WikiProject Australia|importance=Low|Melbourne=yes|Melbourne-importance=Low|transport=yes|transport-importance=Low}}

}}

{{old move|date=22 December 2023|destination=G class Melbourne tram|result=no consensus, though there was a suggestion to add redirects from the unhyphenated versions, which received no objection and will be created following closure|link=Special:Permalink/1191970753#Requested move 22 December 2023}}

Did you know nomination

Photos?

This article really needs a photo (or more) of its subject. Even a mock-up or an artist's conception would help. Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

:Have added an infobox photo of the tram mockup and will add more into the article. Takerlamar (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Removing hyphen from article name

I am proposing to remove the hyphen from the title of this tram article, as the official nomenclature from the Department of Transport and Planning is not to have hyphens in tram class names. Examples include on their official website [https://www.vic.gov.au/next-generation-trams], the Melbourne Tram Plan [https://www.vic.gov.au/trams] and the PTV website [https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/footer/about-ptv/improvements-and-projects/tram/la-trobe-street-tram-stop-upgrades/]. Other common unofficial sources like [https://vicsig.net/index.php?page=trams&class=C2 Vicsig] also do not have a hyphen. I'm also proposing to change all the other Melbourne tram class article names in a similar manner, any feedback welcome! Takerlamar (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

:@Takerlamar: No objection to this from me, could you also ask this at the Australian Transport WikiProject for a centralised discussion? Fork99 (talk) 04:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

::Will do, thanks for the heads up. Takerlamar (talk) 01:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 22 December 2023

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, though there was a suggestion to add redirects from the unhyphenated versions, which received no objection and will be created following closure. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 04:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

----

:G-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|G class Melbourne tram}}
:A-class Melbourne tram (1910) → {{no redirect|A class Melbourne tram (1910)}}
:B-class Melbourne tram (1917) → {{no redirect|B class Melbourne tram (1917)}}
:C-class Melbourne tram (1913) → {{no redirect|C class Melbourne tram (1913)}}
:D-class Melbourne tram (1914) → {{no redirect|D class Melbourne tram (1914)}}
:E-class Melbourne tram (1914) → {{no redirect|E class Melbourne tram (1914)}}
:F-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|F class Melbourne tram}}
:G-class Melbourne tram (1913) → {{no redirect|G class Melbourne tram (1913)}}
:H-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|H class Melbourne tram}}
:J-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|J class Melbourne tram }}
:K-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|K class Melbourne tram }}
:L-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|L class Melbourne tram}}
:M-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|M class Melbourne tram}}
:N-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|N class Melbourne tram }}
:O-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|O class Melbourne tram}}
:P-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|P class Melbourne tram}}
:Q-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|Q class Melbourne tram}}
:R-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|R class Melbourne tram }}
:S-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|S class Melbourne tram }}
:T-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|T class Melbourne tram}}
:U-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|U class Melbourne tram}}
:V-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|V class Melbourne tram }}
:W-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|W class Melbourne tram}}
:X-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|X class Melbourne tram}}
:X1-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|X1 class Melbourne tram}}
:X2-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|X2 class Melbourne tram}}
:Y-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|Y class Melbourne tram }}
:Y1-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|Y1 class Melbourne tram}}
:Z-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|Z class Melbourne tram}}
:A-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|A class Melbourne tram}}
:B-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|B class Melbourne tram}}
:C-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|C class Melbourne tram}}
:D-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|D class Melbourne tram}}
:E-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|E class Melbourne tram}}
:C2-class Melbourne tram → {{no redirect|C2 class Melbourne tram}}

– As discussion earlier and on WikiProject Australian Transport, I am proposing to remove the hyphen from the title of these tram articles, as the official nomenclature from the Department of Transport and Planning is not to have hyphens in tram class names. Examples include on their official website [https://www.vic.gov.au/next-generation-trams], the Melbourne Tram Plan [https://www.vic.gov.au/trams] and the PTV website [https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/footer/about-ptv/improvements-and-projects/tram/la-trobe-street-tram-stop-upgrades/]. Other common unofficial sources like [https://vicsig.net/index.php?page=trams&class=C2 Vicsig] also do not have a hyphen. Takerlamar (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

~~Support: per nom and previous discussion at WT:AUSTS,~~ however I think C2-class Melbourne tram is missing from the nomination, @User:Takerlamar. Fork99 (talk) 01:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:Comment: Striked support since honestly, it could go either way. A few news articles I found do use hyphens [https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/zeds-nearly-dead-melbournes-first-modern-trams-to-be-retired-within-days-20160412-go4n4c.html] [https://www.timeout.com/melbourne/things-to-do/melbourne-trams-ranked] [https://danielbowen.com/2011/10/29/queen-z-class-tram/] [https://www.broadsheet.com.au/melbourne/city-file/article/melbourne-getting-rid-its-original-z-class-trams], whereas official government sources and some news outlets inconsistently drop the hyphen. Fork99 (talk) 02:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment: Including the hyphen seems more like ordinary English orthography. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:Similar articles such as Sydney Trains K set don't have a hyphen. Whereas something like Transperth B-series train does, however that appears to be both in common and official usage. If consensus is to not move, adding redirects from the non-hyphenated versions wouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion. Fork99 (talk) 02:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::Sydney Trains K set seems like it shouldn't have a hyphen. Transperth B-series train seems like it should. "A-class" and "B-series" are used as compound adjectives in the example titles. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:::But why? Is it a gut feeling, or are there established English literary conventions for this? Purely based on orthography, Adelaide Metro 4000 class and 3000 class railcar lacks a hyphen. I feel like the titles shouldn't be based on orthography but what is commonly used by primary and secondary sources. Fork99 (talk) 03:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Other examples: H type Adelaide tram and 7000-series (CTA). Fork99 (talk) 03:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Some guidance is provided at MOS:HYPHEN. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Weak oppose, since Fork99 found sources that use hyphenation and that seems more like ordinary English formatting (see, MOS:TM: "{{tq|When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should examine styles already in use by independent reliable sources. From among those, choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner.}}"). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::I don't think the names of types of trams are trademarks though? Fork99 (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, to clarify the previous comment, what I mean is that I don't think that “A-class tram” (e.g.) is equivalent to the trademark of Alstom Citadis, for example. Fork99 (talk) 20:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I believe the spirit of MOS:TM also applies for things that aren't trademarks. Wikipedia does not defer to "official" styling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎BarrelProof (talk • contribs) 22:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I would say that there is a fairly even mix of use cases with and without hyphens by independent reliable sources. There are examples of uses without the hyphen even among the same outlets linked above by Fork99 above - see the following examples ([https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/trams-the-missing-piece-from-the-transport-puzzle-20181119-p50gvt.html], [https://www.timeout.com/melbourne/news/sneak-peek-melbourne-is-getting-swish-new-trams-heres-a-first-look-at-the-latest-model-102623] - note inconsistency even in the same article, [https://danielbowen.com/2023/05/14/safety-and-access-lagging-on-the-trams/]). To me, there isn't an overwhelming use with or without a hyphen, just inconsistency at the least. Takerlamar (talk) 22:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Comment: An additional note from me that the category pages on Commons do not have hyphens. And thanks for noting the omission of the C2-class - I've added that one in now. Takerlamar (talk) 11:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.