Talk:Muezzin#Requested move 17 January 2025

I removed the non-standard spelling and pronounciation comment. If you want to show how it is pronounced in Arabic, use IPA. Ashmoo 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there any special reason why the Turkish word for the muezzin's platform is mentioned on the English language WP page? Ashmoo 04:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• The first muezzins used the roof of the mosque, or the adjacent streets, to call the followers. It is believed that the institution of the muezzin — the public crier — existed in pre-Islamic Arab culture {{Fact|date=December 2006}}.
• In an age when there was little or no schooling for the blind and blindness was an impediment for almost all other jobs, it also provided a useful employment. {{Fact|date=June 2007}}

Please do not re-insert this information without a citation.--BirgitteSB 20:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

English is muezzin, the original word has no bearing. Arminden (talk) 15:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

{{ping|Doug Weller|}} Doug, sorry to bother, but I don't know any other arbiter regularly dealing with English terminology. Would you mind inviting any colleagues you know? Thank you. Anyway, the issue at hand is pretty clear-cut.

• Languages are "living", evolving entities.
• They develop in time, being subject to various influences.
• English, even more than French or German, works on the principle that "correct is what people use", rather than what this or that state authority, non-governmental institution, or lobby group is supporting and pushing.
• Islam is a religion and culture that hasn't been an intrinsic, active, major part of the evolution of English language for most of this language's evolution.
• In modern times, this has slowly changed, but Islam still is just "in the process" of making its mark. It still didn't fully dislodge words that entered English language centuries ago, which aren't conform with their original Arabic form.
• CONCRETELY: the Arabic word for muezzin, written in Arabic abjad (not an alphabet) and variously transliterated in Western academic circles, has arrived in English via the Turkish language, and has been adapted to English phonetics and the specific English version of the Latin alphabet. This has happened centuries ago, and "muezzin" has long become a well-established English, i.e.: not Arabic, word.
• Islamic fundamentalism is attempting, like all puristic and intolerant ideologies, to reach its goals through a "long march through the institutions". Typically, a first line of action is modifying the language. Some changes are happening through normal influence, due to a rising number of Muslims in English-speaking countries; but in other cases, the changes are not forthcoming, and fundamentalists are trying to impose them by force - like here.
• MUEZZIN still is by far the predominantly used English word. Check out for yourselves.
• Etymology: Arabic muʾaḏḏin / muadhdhin → (Ottoman) Turkish müezzin -> English muezzin. "The English spelling is from dialectal use of -z- for -dh-." (etymonline.com, Wiktionary). Muezzin is given as the main English form, with only Wiktionary also mentioning 1st) mouezzin, and 2nd) muadhin as "alternative forms".
  

Pls also note:

- The two historically most influential non-Arabic Muslim languages also diverge: Turkish müezzin and Persian mo'azzen (Wiktionary).

- French, German and other European languages also use terms containing a Z, not a Dh, and make no moves towards changing that.

Etymonline indicates 1580s as the time "muezzin" entered English vocabulary. Almost half a millennium (!) ago.

All major and popular English dictionaries and encyclopædias use, with no exception, MUEZZIN, never mu'azzin, muadhin, muadhdhin, or any other artificial construct.That is - all except Wikipedia. No comment.

• [https://www.britannica.com/topic/muezzin Encyclopædia Britannica] 2020
• [https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/muezzin Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary], Oxford University Press 2020
• [https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/muezzin Oxford Advanced American Dictionary], Oxford University Press 2020
• [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/muezzin Cambridge Dictionary], Cambridge University Press 2020
• [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/muezzin Wiktionary] 2020
• [https://www.etymonline.com/word/muezzin Etymonline] 2020
• [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/muezzin Dictionary.com], based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Random House, 2020
• [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muezzin Merriam-Webster] 2020
• [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/muezzin Collins] 2020
• [https://www.lexico.com/definition/muezzin Lexico.com]

Enough?

That much about what LissanX called "shockingly bad edits". His issue is with English language, philology as a science, and Western values as such. That's why it's the last time I will mention him, promise. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 13:34, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Arminden}} I don't know what you mean by arbiter (I was an Arbitrator for two terms, but the Committee deals with conduct not content). but I agree and have moved it. Doug Weller talk 14:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

:It's worth noting that there's an interesting contradiction in the argument about linguistic purism here. The caption cited ("A United States Navy muezzin performing the adhan indoor with a microphone") actually demonstrates the natural coexistence of different forms of Arabic loanwords in English. The word "muezzin" (from Arabic مؤذن, mu'aḏḏin) and "adhan" (from Arabic أَذَان, adhān) are etymologically related, derived from the same Arabic root أَذَنَ (adhana), meaning "to announce" or "to permit." Yet in this example, we see both the Turkish-influenced "muezzin" and the direct Arabic transliteration "adhan" being used naturally in the same English sentence. Ryandward (talk) 08:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

{{ping|Ashmoo|BirgitteSB|Simplexity22|St.nerol|In ictu oculi}} For all the cited reasons (see above), I strongly support the sane move of giving this English Wikipedia article its proper English name. Arabic has its own Wikipedia, confessional Wikis also exist, but this is the English Wikipedia, and both BE and AE use "muezzin" at an overwhelming level. Let's stay sane. Corona isn't the only debilitating virus. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 13:45, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

:I did it as soon as I saw the earlier move request and your post. {{re|DA1|Anthony Appleyard|AjaxSmack}} I hope you all agree. Doug Weller talk 13:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

• {{ping|Doug Weller}} At 13:48, 2 April 2020‎ User:Doug Weller moved page Mu'azzin to Muezzin. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Muezzin's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "bbc.co.uk":

• From Bilal ibn Rabah: "[http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml#section_3 Slavery in Islam]." BBC News. BBC, 2009. Web. 2013.
• From Hajj: {{cite web |url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/holydays/eiduladha.shtml |title=Eid ul Adha |date=7 September 2009 |publisher=BBC |access-date=30 December 2012}}

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)