Talk:Nihilism#Nietzsche incorrect

"The Matrix and Philosophy" by William Irwin...see chapter 13...(how appropriate)...

nemo senki

Hello {{u|Wolfdog}} and thanks for your suggestion to include more context, etymology, and pronunciation in the lead, as an earlier version of this article did. One reason for not having some of these details is MOS:LEADCLUTTER, which warns against stuffing too many details into the first sentence, like etymology and pronunciation. The etymology is currently discussed in the section "Definition, related terms, and etymology" and we could move the pronunciation there as well. They are both not very essential to the topic, so it's probably better to reserve the lead for the most important aspects.

I think the current version is also not bad but it strikes me as somewhat repetitive. For example, the 1st sentence, the 2nd sentence, and the 3rd sentence say each time anew that some aspects of knowledge, morality, and meaning are rejected. All these points are then repeated one more time in later lead paragraphs in more detail. The previous version was more concise without this type of repetition. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:42, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for your explanations. I see for example that there's a whole etymology section. We could revert back to your previous version, but I do think the current second sentence is pretty crucial to keep somewhere in the lead section, since it describes in the most concrete terms some common forms of nihilism to otherwise confused newcomers.

:Wolfdog (talk) 11:10, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::I tried to implement your idea, using the previous version of the lead while replacing the second sentence with your version. I modified it a little to reflect the order and terminology used later. I moved the pronunciation to the section "Definition, related terms, and etymology" and I removed the references per WP:LEADCITE since all of this is already discussed in more detail and with references in the body of the article. Have a look if this works for you. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Yeah, it looks good. Can we add "In philosophy" to the lede sentence? Wolfdog (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::::We could try "Nihilism is a family of philosophical views" for better flow. I'm not sure if it's necessary since philosophy is already mentioned in the 3rd sentence. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:28, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::OK, fair enough. Thanks for your collegiality. The more I look at the current lede sentence though, the more I prefer the one preceding your many edits. Here are the two for comparison:

:::::{{tq|Nihilism is a family of views that reject certain aspects of existence.}}

:::::It's not really clear to a newcomer what this means. "Certain aspects of existence"? And it's also any particular view, not JUST a family. Here's the earlier version:

:::::{{tq|Nihilism ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|n|aɪ|(|h|)|ᵻ|l|ɪ|z|əm|,_|ˈ|n|iː|-}}) is any viewpoint, or a family of views, that rejects generally accepted or fundamental aspects of human existence,{{cite encyclopedia|last=Crosby|first=Donald A.|title=Nihilism|year=1998|doi=10.4324/9780415249126-N037-1|encyclopedia=Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy|publisher=Taylor and Francis|isbn=9780415250696|quote=As its name implies (from Latin nihil, 'nothing'), philosophical nihilism is a philosophy of negation, rejection, or denial of some or all aspects of thought or life.}}{{cite book|title=Nietzsche and Philosophy|last=Deleuze|first=Gilles|publisher=The Athlone Press|year=1962|isbn=978-0-231-13877-2|location=London|translator-last=Tomlinson|translator-first=Hugh|publication-date=1983|quote=Nietzsche calls the enterprise of denying life and depreciating existence nihilism.}} namely knowledge, morality, or meaning.{{Cite journal|last=Veit|first=Walter|date=2018|title=Existential Nihilism: The Only Really Serious Philosophical Problem|url=https://doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.26965.24804|journal=Journal of Camus Studies|volume=|pages=211–236|doi=10.13140/RG.2.2.26965.24804|via=}}{{unbulleted list|{{cite encyclopedia|last=Crosby|first=Donald A.|title=Nihilism|year=1998|doi=10.4324/9780415249126-N037-1|encyclopedia=Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy|publisher=Taylor and Francis|isbn=9780415250696|quote=As its name implies (from Latin nihil, 'nothing'), philosophical nihilism is a philosophy of negation, rejection, or denial of some or all aspects of thought or life.}}|{{cite encyclopedia|last=Pratt|first=Alan|author-link=Alan Pratt|title=Nihilism|encyclopedia=Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy|url=https://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100412132711/http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/nihilism.htm|archive-date=2010-04-12|quote=Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence.}}|{{cite encyclopedia|title=Nihilism|encyclopedia=Encyclopædia Britannica|date=3 January 2024 |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/nihilism |quote=In the 20th century, nihilism encompassed a variety of philosophical and aesthetic stances that, in one sense or another, denied the existence of genuine moral truths or values, rejected the possibility of knowledge or communication, and asserted the ultimate meaninglessness or purposelessness of life or of the universe.}}|{{OEtymD|nihilism|nihil}}}}}}

:::::I removed the etymology and lead-in phrase as we discussed, but kept the pronunciation, which is the norm across thousands of WP articles' lead sentences. This sentence solves my above criticisms of the newer version. It even includes multiple citations, which probably was meant to make it less vulnerable to editing disputes. What are your problems with this version? Wolfdog (talk) 23:24, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::You are right that the current expression is less specific than your suggestion. However, I don't think that this is a disavantage in this case, given the broadness of the concept. Your suggestion talks specifically about the rejection of "aspects of HUMAN existence". But this does not apply to all forms of nihilism. For instance, mereological nihilism rejects the existence of composite objects. This is a broad metaphysical claim and not about humans in particular. Similarly, typical definitions of cosmological nihilism focus on the nature of the universe.

::::::According to MOS:LEADPRON, {{green|It is preferable to move pronunciation guides to a footnote or elsewhere in the article if they would otherwise clutter the first sentence}}. There are some exceptions but they don't apply here. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::The current pronunciation doesn't seem particularly cluttery though. And at the very least, nihilism is "a particular viewpoint, or a family of views". It is not JUST the name of a family of views. Wolfdog (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::What do you think about "Nihilism encompasses various views that..."? We could also use "Nihilism is a family of views or any particular viewpoint within this family that..." but this sound a little cumbersome and is rather long. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:25, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I'd be happy with either. Appreciate it. Would you be ok with restoring the pronunciations to the lede? Wolfdog (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I implemented the first suggestion. I also followed your request to move the pronunciation from the section "Definition, related terms, and etymology" to the first sentence. As I said earlier, I have my doubts about this part and we may have to move it to that section again if other editors object. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:46, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::OK, thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 10:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

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{{Talk:Nihilism/GA1}}

Hi, I was wondering whether something about Afro-pessimism (Africa), [https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003247791-32/black-nihilism-devon-johnson The Routledge Handbook of Contemporary Existentialism, chapter: Black Nihilism (2024)], or Afro-pessimism (United States) might be due a sentence in "Other forms"? Kowal2701 (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Kowal2701}} Thanks for the suggestion, I found a way to add a sentence. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:09, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

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