Talk:Nur Jahan#Merge proposal

Noor Jahan's original name from birth was Noormahal which was changed later to Noor Jahan. A small town is named about her original name. This town is called Noormahal or Nurmahal which is located in Jalandhar district(Punjab/India).

Refference: "India and Her Neighbours",by William Patrick Andrew, 'The Remarkable Women of India' section, Page 91.

About me:

I am born and raised in Nurmahal or Noormahal town, the same was told to me by my great grand father when I was a kid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rkatwal (talk • contribs) 02:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

A few years ago, I looked upon this page as one of many references for research after reading the assigned book The Twentieth Wife by Indu Sundaresan; the page was completely different and had lesser information. The context on the wiki page now resembles every bit of info & name (as well as spelling) from the book itself. The book is a historical fiction, therefore not all of the content is verifiable. Whom has edited the page since then and is it reliable information or does it even have a verification source/link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.166.13 (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

How can this article be imporoved? I have to edit a wikipedia page for my university history class and was wondering what type of things I could add to the article to imporve its style and validity. So far I have been working on the style of the writting and its format, in addition i have been adding refernces from various book i found at my school library. SM08031990 (talk) 22:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)SM08031990

I came to this page to read more about this historical figure after watching a wonderful, fictionalized dance drama of her life. This page seems to have many discrepancies and there are contradictions too. Can someone who is well-versed in the actual, nonfiction history please have a look at this, to verify and clean this article up? While some parts seem to be researched well, others seem to contradict those, and also seem a bit fictionalized. I have no knowledge of this era or this woman, so I do not want to attempt any editing, but this is a call to experts to please take a look at this page.

Thanks!2601:9:2500:978:A4B4:779A:8126:DB8 (talk) 14:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I propose merging Farsh-i-chandani into this article. I raised issues when reviewing the article's DYK nomination—I felt that the Farsh-i-chandani article focuses primarily on "Nur Jahan's fashion and artistic interests" (it's the name of a section) and the nominal subject took a back seat. {{u|RAJIVVASUDEV}}, the article creator and nominator, cited the lead of WP:SPLIT as a reason why it shouldn't be merged into Nur Jahan#Patron of the arts and architecture; as the section is currently four rather short paragraphs long, I don't see how the merged section would be "out of proportion to the rest of the article, as RAJIVVASUDEV feels it would. Thanks, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Nur Jahan made noteworthy contributions across multiple domains, including textiles and architecture. For her father Mirz Ghiys Beg, Nur Jahan, the wife of Jahangir, commissioned the mausoleum i.e Tomb of I'timād-ud-Daulah. The field of textiles is expansive, encompassing a diverse array of materials and applications. Within this realm, she was involved in designing dresses and modifying various fabrics. The category of carpets encompasses a diverse range of rugs and floor coverings. One of Nur Jahan's notable contributions was in the design of the Farsh I Chandani, a distinctive floor covering that has garnered attention for its unique features and merits a dedicated article. If an article becomes too large, or a section of an article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article, it may be appropriate for some or all of the article to be split into new articles. Thanks RV (talk) 15:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support merger There is simply not enough reliably sourced material to say anything beyond "Nur Jahan is credited with popularizing farsh-e-chandani, a style of sandalwood coloured carpeting" and perhaps including this image. I have yet to see a source that devotes even a para (2 sentences?) to this particular style of carpets. The new article makes a valiant effort to say more but ends up repeating stuff that belongs in this article; using [https://books.google.com/books?id=h9-BAAAAMAAJ& an iffy source] that says the carpets were white (possibly confusing chandani meaning sandalwoody with chaandni meaning moonlighty); and, adds a lengthy, largely off-topic quote discussing the dating of non-Farsha-i-chandani carpets, from [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Flowers_Underfoot/2ILPYtPB4x0C a MOMA catalog]. Abecedare (talk) 02:56, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

:@Abecedare I removed that quote and the iffy source. Tried to improve it. I completely agree that it is not a good article but sufficiently meets the requirements per the basic four criteria. The section in Nur Jahan#Patron of the arts and architecture could be further expanded with information and contents from different domains. Kindly have a look. Thanks RV (talk) 09:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Aside from you thinking the DYK nomination criteria are somehow important to this discussion, I will note that your efforts to include every single thing mentioned about this carpet has led to the article being full of close paraphrasing, original research, and synthesis of sources. I note some examples below:

:::*Article: "Additionally, the tans, golds, and brown colours of the floor bring to mind the sandalwood-colored farsh-i chandani that was previously attributed to her hand."

::::*Source: "The floor's colors, moreover—hues of tans, golds, and browns—recall the sandalwood-colored farsh-i chandani attributed above to her hand." (Findly Banks, p.222, obvious close paraphrasing)

:::::* Revised: "The utilisation of floor colours such as tan, gold, and brown elicits memories of the sandalwood-hued farsh-i chandani, which was historically attributed to Nur Jahan."

:::*Article: "The term "Chandani" or "Chandni" was historically employed to connote objects or phenomena that exhibited a calming radiance akin to that of moonlight."

::::*Source: "The word "Chandani" or "Chandni" was used to denote anything that had a soothing brilliance like moonlight". (Sarker p. 156, again, obvious CLOP)

:::::* Revised: "Chandani" or "Chandni" previously referred to moonlight-like objects or phenomena.

:::*Article: "Mughal paintings blend Persian and Indian styles and techniques, integrating influences from Central Asia and Europe."

::::*Source: None of this appears in Asher, the cited source. The only Persian things discussed in the review are manuscripts, texts, and poetry, while Central Asia and Europe are not mentioned at all. Clear original research.

:::::* Trimmed.

:::*Article: "Mughal paintings from the 16th to 19th century portray the lifestyle of that era, covering a diverse range of subjects such as legendary stories, battle scenes, courtly affairs, gardens, hunting scenes, and wildlife."

::::*Source: "between 16th to 19th century. The Mughal paintings of India revolved around themes like battles, court scenes, receptions, legendary stories, hunting scenes, wildlife" (Ali et al. p.32; again, clear CLOP—using a thesaurus and switching a few words around does not stop it being plagiarism!)

:::::* Trimmed.

:::*Article: The anonymous contemporary painting [Image above] portrays Jahangir and Nur Jahan in a seated position, facing each other with a mutual gaze. The individuals are seated in the outdoor space atop luxurious carpets adorned with a floor covering known as Farsh-i-Chandani. They are encircled by her attendants."

::::*Source: "In an anonymous contemporary Mughal painting, the empress and Jahangir sit face-to-face in a garden, on sumptuous carpets covered by the farsh-i-chandani floor-sheet...Her attendants surround them" (Das p.297; guess what)

:::::* Revised:In the depicted contemporary painting, Jahangir and Nur Jahan are portrayed seated opposite each other on lavish carpets embellished with a Farsh-i-Chandani floor covering. They are accompanied by attendants in close proximity. Notably, Shah Jahan is presented in a contrasting and more restrained manner compared to his father.

:::Aside from this being a sanctionable offence, {{u|RAJIVVASUDEV}}, I think that it is pretty obvious that your logic and written content is seriously flawed. I would recommend removing the above issues and checking all your sources carefully, on other articles as well. Pinging {{u|Abecedare}} for a third opinion. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

:::: Pinging {{u|Abecedare}} @User:AirshipJungleman29 I'm putting in all my efforts to avoid the proposed merging of the eligible, independent article. Here is the Copyvio Detector score and inline citations are in accordance. I have concerns about potential loss of meaning or clarity in the process of translation or rewording, but I am willing to give it a try if . it is truly necessary.

:::::* It is not an original research, policy stating that, while articles should be written in your own words, they should substantially retain the meaning of the source material. All content added to the article is verifiable and has an appropriate inline citation.

:::::* Close paraphrasing is also permitted when there are only a limited number of ways to say the same thing. This may be the case when there is no reasonable way to avoid using technical terms, and may also be the case with simple statements of fact. For example, you pointed out #1 tans, golds, brown colours, sandalwood-colored. #2 WP:SKYISBLUE "The word "Chandani" or "Chandni" was used to denote anything that had a soothing brilliance like moonlight". I have made efforts to address and rectify all the points mentioned. Please check. Thanks RV (talk) 14:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

{{od}} {{reply|RAJIVVASUDEV}} Stepping back a bit from an detailed analysis of the current article version, I think it would help to read WP:THREE and see if there are three reliable sources that provide significant coverage of the subject, i.e. Farsh-i-chandani (IMO there is not even one such source). If there is still disagreement over the issue, I'd suggest opening an AFD so that more editors are likely to see the discussion, which can then be formally closed as or Keep/Merge. Abecedare (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

: @Abecedare @User:AirshipJungleman29 I do agree with you. But IMO, the best merging destination for this is Mughal carpets. Thanks RV (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

:: No problem with that, since a sentence along the lines of "Nur Jahan is credited with popularizing farsh-e-chandani, a style of sandalwood coloured carpeting" can be included in both Nur Jahan and Mughal carpets, with Farsh-i-chandani redirecting to the latter. Abecedare (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

::As Abecedare said. Are we all agreed? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

::: Yes! Let's close it. Thanks RV (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

::: Done. Thanks RV (talk) 02:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Farsh-i-chandani}}