Talk:Pope Francis#Relation to Jewish community in Brazil Argentina

{{edit semi-protected}}

To the last line of the introduction, please add:

{{text diff

|

From 2023 he condemned Israel's military operations in Gaza, calling for investigations of war crimes.

Francis died at the age of 88 in the early morning of 21 April 2025, Easter Monday. He made his last public appearance the day before, on Easter Sunday.[15][16]

Early years

|

From 2023 he condemned Israel's military operations in Gaza, calling for investigations of war crimes.

Francis died at the age of 88 in the early morning of 21 April 2025, Easter Monday. He made his last public appearance the day before, on Easter Sunday.[15][16] For a year and a half before his death, during the Gaza war, he spoke to the Palestinian Christians in Gaza City every night.[BBC][DW][Economist][NBC][398][399] A Palestinian Christian from Gaza said, “Pope Francis was like a shield for the Christians in the enclave … he was fighting for our rights and for our protection”.[NBC]

Early years

}}

The references numbers might change? But I mean these two:

398 "Gaza's Christians 'heartbroken' after death of Pope Francis who phoned them nightly". The Independent. 22 April 2025. Retrieved 22 April 2025.

399 "Pope Francis phoned Gaza's only Catholic church 'every day' - as priest reveals details of last call". Sky News. Retrieved 22 April 2025.

New References:

BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyqgy6m8e6o

NBC https://www.nbcnews.com/news/pope-francis/pope-francis-gaza-church-war-catholic-rcna202189

Economist https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2025/04/24/the-pope-phoned-a-priest-in-gaza-every-day

DW https://www.dw.com/en/palestinian-christians-in-gaza-pope-francis-never-forgot-us/a-72324538

FP https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/how-worlds-oldest-christian-community-in-gaza-is-on-brink-of-extinction-13376282.html#goog_rewarded

AJ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/1/under-israeli-attack-who-are-the-christians-of-gaza

WP (The Washington Post) https://web.archive.org/web/20231217012816/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/women-killed-at-holy-family-parish-gaza-israel/

And can you link these pages to the right bits of text in what I have added here, please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_you_condemn_Hamas%3F

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahida_and_Samar_Anton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius_airstrike

{{Text diff

|

Francis condemned the Hamas-led attack on Israel on 7 October 2023 and also criticized Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip during the subsequent Gaza war, saying that "terror should not justify terror" and describing Israel's airstrikes as "cruelty, this is not war."[392][393] He condemned the killing of two Palestinian Christian women by an IDF sniper in Gaza, calling it "terrorism".[394] Throughout the war, Francis had called for an immediate ceasefire, the release of all hostages,[395] and the implementation of a two-state solution.[396] In November 2024, Pope Francis suggested that the international community should investigate if Israel's campaign in Gaza is a genocide of the Palestinian people.[397] From October 2023 until the day he died, he spoke with the only Catholic church in the Gaza Strip every night.[398][399] In his last public appearance he again called for a ceasefire and condemned the "deplorable humanitarian situation" in Gaza.[400][401]

Migrant and refugee issues

|

Francis condemned the Hamas-led attack on Israel on 7 October 2023 and also criticized Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip during the subsequent Gaza war, saying that "terror should not justify terror" and describing Israel's airstrikes as "cruelty, this is not war".[392][393]

Throughout the war, Francis had called for an immediate ceasefire, the release of all hostages,[395] and the implementation of a two-state solution.[396] In November 2024, Pope Francis suggested that the international community should investigate if Israel's campaign in Gaza is a genocide of the Palestinian people.[397]

From October 2023 until the day he died, he spoke every night with Palestinian Christians who were sheltering in the Holy Family Catholic church.[BBC][DW][398][399] The Christians in the Gaza Strip lived in Gaza City, in the North of the Strip.[BBC] All three of Gaza's Churches – belonging to three different denominations – are in Gaza City, one of the world's oldest Christian communities.[AJ][FP] There were nearly 1000 Christians in Gaza City at the start of the war, at the time he died 36 or more Palestinian Christians in Gaza had been killed and many others had been forced out.[Economist] When Pope Francis condemned the killing of two Palestinian Christian women by an IDF sniper in Gaza he called it "terrorism".[394] One of those killed was the mother and grandmother of the largest Catholic family in Gaza.[WP]

He called the community more than once on the worst days.[Economist] Each night members of the community would gather around to the phone when he called.[Economist] He knew many of the members of Gaza's small Christian community by name.[BBC] In his last public appearance Pope Francis again called for a ceasefire and condemned the "deplorable humanitarian situation" in Gaza.[400][401] After the Pope's death, he was deeply missed by the Palestinian Christians in Gaza City, 500 people had been living in the Holy Family Church after most of the city had been destroyed.[DW] Issa Saaba, a Catholic who had been living for over a year there said, “The pope made us feel we were not forgotten”.[Economist] Many arrived from the Orthodox church, the Church of Saint Porphyrius, after it was bombed. George Antone, a Catholic parishioner in the Holy Family Church told NBC News, “Pope Francis was like a shield for the Christians in the enclave. He was the fighter, he was fighting for our rights and for our protection”.[NBC]

Migrant and refugee issues

}}

2405:6E00:621:BFC2:D339:458E:CD2D:D745 (talk) 23:46, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:I oppose this change. The introduction section change goes way too far in detail about his views on Gaza. The introduction needs to be way more concise than that. The second change goes too far into detail about the conditions in Gaza, and not things directly about Pope Francis himself.

:Also, these changes give undue weight to the Palestinian side of the conflict.

:I feel just as sympathetic for Gaza as you probably do. And I fiercely oppose everything Israel is doing just as much as you probably do too. But these changes don't fit well into the article, and more importantly, Wikipedia isn't the place for gathering sympathy and support. Terraviridian (talk) 05:14, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Terraviridian, it is directly about him, Almost every major international news source has an entire article about him calling Gaza's parish every night. Pope Francis was particularly passionate about defending the Palestine Catholics in Gaza (and other Christians, and other Palestinian civilians). There are multiple news stories that are about him and how much he cared about that issue. Most of the references I suggested adding mention him in the headline and are entirely focused on Pope Francis.

::I don't know what I could do to avoid giving "undue weight to the Palestinian side of the conflict" without adding things that are "not things directly about Pope Francis himself"? He was the leader of the world's Catholics, that was his job and his role in life, so the things about him are going to be from the Christian "side".

::The article already has appropriate balance, it includes examples of him expressing views that were more supportive of Israelis, e.g. "Francis condemned the Hamas-led attack on Israel on 7 October 2023" and that he called for "the release of all hostages".

::2405:6E00:620:DC5B:BECD:874D:E738:FD01 (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello,

I have noticed that Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Francis, and Leo XIV all start with "... is the Bishop of Rome, head of the Catholic Church,..." but this is not consistent with all previous popes before JPII, such as John Paul I, Paul IV, John XXIII, and so on. The reason I am undoing these edits is because I don't see the reason to add this to the lead since it's already on the "Pope" page and in their infoboxes. I also don't see the reason to do this because all other popes before John Paul II don't say this in their lead sentences. Can we do something about this and make a consensus about it please?

Thanks. BRELMAAJ2024 (talk) 22:35, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:@BRELMAAJ2024 - What would you propose the lede be instead? I viewed several articles of popes prior to John XXIII and they all have a similar opening sentence that introduces the role of the pontiff. Like an edit summary mentioned, it is a useful descriptor and I don't see the need to remove it. You can choose to add {{tq|"... is the Bishop of Rome, head of the Catholic Church,..."}} at the beginning of the article if you really wanted to? — That Coptic Guy^{ping me!} (talk) (contribs) 17:41, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Also "Bishop of Rome" is the main official title. It's the definition of what a Pope is and redirects there. Barjimoa (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::We don't need either "pope" or "bishop of Rome" in the intros. Please respect the RFC that was held 'bout a year or two ago, which resulted in a consensus to exclude those titles from the intros. GoodDay (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{yo|GoodDay}} could you link that RFC? ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 21:50, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I believe it's in the archives at WP:CATHOLIC. -- GoodDay (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Alright. What I found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 2013#Papal article consistency seems to suggest that the consensus was that "Pope" should not be duplicated, but does not seem to find consensus on if "bishop of Rome" should or should not be said. Talk:List of popes#Request for comment on lead style makes a reference to a change in practice, but I can't find an RFC to back it up. I may not be using the right search terms, though. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Bishop of Rome redirects to Pope, so it's the same thing. We exclude. GoodDay (talk) 22:54, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I have to strongly disagree. I see what you are saying, but by that logic we should also exclude head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of Vatican City: these are also titles of the Pope and redirect to that page. Bishop of Rome is a fundamental descriptor, given that among these titles it's the main one and also the one consistently held by all Popes throughout history. GoodDay, Pbritti, Darth Stabro, where can I propose to add this to the Papal bios? Barjimoa (talk) 05:07, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::We do not link head of the Catholic Church nor sovereign of Vatican City in a single pope article as far as I know (and I reviewed this sentence in a huge portion of them). The links are head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of the Vatican City State. It’s different pages.

:::::::::I will say, I don’t like that some popes (Benedict XVI) have a link to the pope article in their first paragraph and some don’t. I think it should be all or nothing. Mikewem (talk) 23:33, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::If that's the issue, we could also not link the whole "bishop of Rome" but just Rome, perhaps with a redirect to Holy See or Diocese of Rome. That being said, I personally don't consider a redirect to the Pope page via "Bishop of Rome" to be bad. I think "Pope XY was...Pope" is excluded because it just sounds awful, no so much for the redirect. I see no problem in having a redirect to "Pope" as long as we don't have that stylistic problem, and we don't have it with "Pope XY was bishop of Rome etc. etc". That's a strong solution imho. Barjimoa (talk) 07:03, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::I think there should be a link to the pope page in the first paragraph of individual pope pages. Bishop of Rome does the job well, but I worry that it’s redundant with head of Catholic Church. We can’t link “head of Catholic Church” because then we lose the link to Catholic Church. Sometimes (like with Francis, Jesuit pope) there is a linked adjective before the only instance of the word pope, so we can’t link pope there either because we avoid adjacent links. Maybe the answer is just to let Bishop of Rome in the infobox suffice as the link. Mikewem (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Whatever you all agree to. Please implement it on all papal bio pages. GoodDay (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:Sure. I want consistency too.Barjimoa (talk) 05:25, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Was he at birth an Italian national (as the son of an Italian subject) ? 2A02:8440:E500:6C3E:0:0:DFD:D3F4 (talk) 15:07, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:He may well have been entitled to joint Italian citizenship through his father, but he was first and foremost an Argentinian citizen.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:38, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:It’s not clear that the father was an Italian subject. He may very well have naturalized in Argentina before Francis was born. There’s something in the history about escaping Mussolini. It suggests the father had no intention of ever returning to Italy. Mikewem (talk) 23:54, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Given that Pope Francis is now deceased, I don't think there is really much use for a section dedicated to his health. I propose deleting this section from the article and putting any info about his health's decline in his final days in the section pertaining to his death. MrJ567 (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2025 (UTC)