Talk:Simon Ekpa#Arbitrary break

Recent RSP addition, for the interested. It was inspired by Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Nigerian_newspapers. WP:N is not in question for this article, but there is a bit of "Ekpa tweeted it, so they printed it" use of sources. Though I think this press is not necessarily "paid" per NEWSORGNIGERIA, just "he gets the clicks." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03L7lnluv6g Many of the tweets around this topic is filled with subtle manipulation, like re-attributing speeches of people. Sources with heavy reliance on Social Media should be avoided imo. News containing social media posts in itself isn't bad if it's combined with journalistic work as well. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 11:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

A new editor stated "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simon_Ekpa&diff=prev&oldid=1280845407 Ngozi is not Simon Ekpa's successor. Simon was the Prime Minister of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE). Ngozi has attacked the BRGIE publicly and privately since Ekpa's detainment. She has disassociated herself from BRGIE.]" However, this source is from last month: [https://guardian.ng/news/sit-at-home-will-persist-in-southeast-until-kanu-ekpas-release-orabueze/]. What other sources are there? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:18, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:@JFHJr, other interested, we're having a WP:EDITWAR again, it's been awhile. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:I would revert this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simon_Ekpa&diff=prev&oldid=1280864284] for lack of sources and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, but WP:EW goes both ways. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:39, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:Ngozi is pursuing her own agenda and has disassociated herself from BRGIE. She wanted even to dissolve BRGIE when she observed that many officials would not follow her plans.

:https://x.com/DpItps/status/1889587065848840290

:And this is just a word of advice, I am not sure it is exactly neutral and impartial to cite primarily Nigeria media sources concerning personelle changes within BRGIE. Vishia12 (talk) 02:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::It's not optimal, but it depends on how they're used. We use Yle and BBC when we can. Secondary sources is what is wanted on WP. Twitter is however even worse and is generally of no use. This appears to be a Ngozi-related tweet (but who knows) and doesn't help with "neutral and impartial". We'll see what happens. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:42, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::That said, looking at the info-box source[https://saharareporters.com/2024/12/26/simon-ekpas-deputy-ngozi-orabueze-says-efforts-ongoing-ensure-separatists-release?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3hhgnOQvLBQp5PURXma7vSq9N9rkP3zooUwmUcMohc5VYT5rKgEKRhXFU_aem_pQpbmd_2D1KvnRnrSRgHcg], successor might be at least technically wrong, if you argue that deputy of imprisoned leader isn't exactly the same thing as a successor. Thoughts on that, editors? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Right, deputy isn't a successor unless the source says so. JFHJr (㊟) 05:19, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Looked around and found these sources:[https://news.band/coup-ekpas-chief-of-staff-topples-his-govt-weeks-after-he-was-thrown-into-prison/][https://news.band/exclusive-ngozi-orabueze-dissolves-biafra-govt-in-exile-as-simon-ekpa-may-spend-longer-time-in-prison/] which were quite interesting. However, I've never heard of news.band and atm I don't think these should be used, could be worse than the general WP:NEWSORGNIGERIA. I'll remove her from the infobox, she's covered in the article-body. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::You beat me to it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:25, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Here's another website we can't use as a source atm, but it might be of interest to editors: https://www.dsusbgov.org/ Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:57, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Deputy is the wrong word and so is successor. It is silly to do all this writing about Simon and BRGIE and not cite the BRGIE website that clearly list its recognized personell. Ngozi Orabueze has disassociated herself from BRGIE and is pursuing her own agenda. She is not Simons successor. When she was with BRGIE she was the Chief of Staff to his office but no longer holds that role. Vishia12 (talk) 08:55, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Successor has been removed, deputy remains per sources like [https://saharareporters.com/2024/12/26/simon-ekpas-deputy-ngozi-orabueze-says-efforts-ongoing-ensure-separatists-release?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3hhgnOQvLBQp5PURXma7vSq9N9rkP3zooUwmUcMohc5VYT5rKgEKRhXFU_aem_pQpbmd_2D1KvnRnrSRgHcg]. If new WP:RS appears, we can use them. What is your WP:RS for "Ngozi Orabueze has disassociated herself from BRGIE and is pursuing her own agenda."? Did you talk to her?

::::Also, do you have a WP:COI regarding "Simon"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:12, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:Another source is the BRGIE website

:https://www.biafrarepublicgov.org/about Vishia12 (talk) 09:00, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::Make it say "Ngozi Orabueze, formerly Simon Ekpa's deputy, is no longer part of this organization as of [date]." That, we could use. However, this website [https://www.dsusbgov.org/] disagrees, though of course that might be a completely unrelated organization Ekpa is also the Prime Minister of. How do you think that should be dealt with, in the Wikipedia context? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Her role in BRGIE was NEVER at any time Simon's Deputy. If you guys want to make an article on Ngozi Orabueze then be my guest but concerning Simon Ekpa and BRGIE she was not and is not his deputy, successor, or anything of the sort. Vishia12 (talk) 09:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::What do you say, editors? This is what we currently got:

::::Despite Ekpa's arrest, his deputy Ngozi Orabueze declared that the sit-at-home initiative championed by Ekpa must continue. She expressed her commitment to ensuring Ekpa's release.{{Cite web|url=https://saharareporters.com/2024/12/26/simon-ekpas-deputy-ngozi-orabueze-says-efforts-ongoing-ensure-separatists-release|title=Simon Ekpa’s Deputy Ngozi Orabueze Says Efforts Ongoing To Ensure Separatist’s Release From Detention In Finland, Biafra Nation Independence | Sahara Reporters|website=saharareporters.com}} In another statement on 25 December 2024, she announced recruitment into the Biafra Defense Forces.{{Cite web |last=Adewole |first=Segun |date=2024-11-24 |title=Simon Ekpa’s loyalists say arrest won’t stop Monday’s sit-at-home in Southeast |url=https://guardian.ng/news/simon-ekpas-loyalists-say-arrest-wont-stop-mondays-sit-at-home-in-southeast/ |access-date=2025-01-27 |website=The Guardian Nigeria News - Nigeria and World News |language=en-US}}{{Cite web |last=Daniel |first=Daniel |date=2024-12-26 |title=Simon Ekpa's Deputy, Ngozi Orabueze, Reveals Plans to Free Him from Detention in Finland |url=https://politicsnigeria.com/simon-ekpas-deputy-ngozi-orabueze-reveals-plans-to-free-him-from-detention-in-finland/ |access-date=2025-01-27 |website=Politics Nigeria |language=en-US}}{{Cite web |date=2024-12-28 |title=Deputy Of Simon Ekpa, Ngozi Orabueze Launches Recruitment For Biafran Security Forces |url=https://www.gistmania.com/talk/topic,611849.0.html |access-date=2025-01-27 |website=Gistmania |language=en}}

::::However, of these, politicsnigeria.com and gistmania.com might be worse than the usual WP:NEWSORGNIGERIA, perhaps we should get rid of them, just because something is online it doesn't necessarily belong here.

::::That leaves Sahara Reporters, which clearly states "deputy", and The Guardian (Nigeria), which states "Orabueze, who identifies herself as the Chief of Staff in the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), reaffirmed her support for the controversial protest action. Ekpa, the self-proclaimed Prime Minister of BRGIE..." which is interesting, since it reads "she says so, anyway". She is also mentioned in 2 Yle articles, [https://yle.fi/a/74-20128728][https://yle.fi/a/74-20128536].

::::And of course, WP:RS for "Ngozi Orabueze has disassociated herself from BRGIE and is pursuing her own agenda" would be of interest. WP:ISAWIT doesn't help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:21, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::So 2 rather reliable sources describe her, in perhaps non-technical terms, as his deputy. A third Finnish source with 2 articles call her "wikt:edustaja" which is usually representative, spokesperson, or deputy (only in that general sense, not as an organizational title). If it's not clear in the sources why they chose that word, we can't be sure. But chief of staff seems perhaps more specific as to her actual organizational title, if it's adequately sourced (note: this is not her BLP so at some probably short point, she is WP:UNDUE here). As well as the apparent split, this really needs to be better-sourced. And succinctly mentioned if at all. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 01:28, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

:::That website you are citing is not Biafra Republic Government in Exile and was not started by Simon Ekpa. Like I said, if you guys want to make an article for Ngozi Orabueze then you can do that but concerning Simon Ekpa and BRGIE, Ngozi has no such role. Vishia12 (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

I was pointed to this Twitter post [https://x.com/Akparawasunny/status/1894361496047534091], which is interesting, but of course nothing we can use as a source. We'll see if anything usable pops up in media. There is this website [https://www.biafrarepublicgov.org/about] and there is this website [https://usbgov.org/cabinet]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

:Why does she occupy nearly two full paragraphs currently? If it were the org's article I'd understand much more easily. But why is she so important to Ekpa, biographically? It's the principle and not the proportion/balance, as much of the article is excessive and glutty in details as it is. JFHJr (㊟) 06:23, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::If media reports she has taken over his thing, I think that's worth mentioning. Not saying there's no recent news bloating atm, but if he's been ousted or whatever, it's a significant part of his bio. But the general Ekpa-problem remains, most media just repeats what he/she says, there's no WP:RS commentary or analysis. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:39, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::I re-wrote that section some, see what you think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:::It looks much improved. Thank you very much. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simon_Ekpa&diff=prev&oldid=1285723345 Your edit] more effectively contextualizes a third party within this subject's biography. JFHJr (㊟) 21:48, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

File:Simon Ekpa portrait, 2023.jpg

File:Official Portrait of Simon Ekpa (2023).jpg]]

@Canterbury Tail, @Nathannah, other interested.

IMO, we should keep this leadimage, it's better than none, and since we have it we might as well use it. And looking at other pics of him, I think it's recognizable. There seems to be an amount of AI/whatever, but that seems to be expected these days. The leadimage at Donald Trump doesn't look all natural either, I think Weekend Update described it as "...and the gates of hell opened." The Ekpa-pic was previously discussed at Commons [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Simon_Ekpa_portrait,_2023.jpg here], and WP has seen [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqly43k3d45o worse].

Fwiw, it's a "The Wikimedia Foundation has received an e-mail confirming that the copyright holder has approved publication under the terms mentioned on this page." pic, so he's not being AI-pranked by someone else. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:07, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

• Otherstuff/whataboutTrump aside (and nobody is interested in the license), if I read you correctly, the main point is this image is better than no image. I respectfully disagree. Nathannah's edit summary suits me fine. JFHJr (㊟) 06:18, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Good enough, and "better than no image" is my argument, yes. "It is common for an article's lead or infobox to carry a representative image—such as of a person or place, a book or album cover—to give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page."
• :Consensus will be what it will be, there's an element of personal taste here (that essay is an essay). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:29, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I suspect that you, my friend, enjoy a high tolerance for the uncanny valley. And yes, this will be a consensus on taste apparently. JFHJr (㊟) 06:34, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::When I watched Exodus: Gods and Kings I was greatly annoyed that Moses got a steel sword and that the Sphinx looked like it does today. How a politician wants to look in a picture apparently bugs me less. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:48, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::The consensus appears to be that the movie sucked. Necessarily, a variety of gripes, including those both like and unlike yours led to that kind of consensus. Similarly, editors booing the original image may have a variety of aesthetic motivations. My own situation is the uncanny valley, and gazing at the old image induces a palpable sensation of distrust and even some distress. The uncanny valley article's graph illustration of somewhere around zombie and moving prosthetic hand is where I think I and others are. And if you're spectral like me, you might actually physically feel the discomfort. JFHJr (㊟) 00:05, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• That's not even a real face! That's just a bunch of parts messing with my mind! Seriously I have to agree no image is better than...whatever this is. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:27, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :[https://cdn.mynigeria.com/imagelib/pics/825/82506244.jpg Close enough to the original, I think.] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• A slightly eerie manipulated photo is definitely better than nothing at all, if it's all we've got. The caption could give the reader some appropriate context ("2023 publicity image") to let them join the dots, if they might wonder why it looks the way it does. Belbury (talk) 08:15, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :The caption at the time of removal was "Upscaled image of Ekpa in 2023". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:23, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::MOS:AIUPSCALE actually does advise that ({{tq|If an AI-upscaled image is used in an article, this fact should be noted in its caption.}}), but I don't know how much that should apply to publicity shots where the original was presumably never published. (Wikipedia wouldn't, I assume, be expected to note in the caption when a publicity photo had been airbrushed or otherwise retouched.) Belbury (talk) 09:21, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::Ironically, it appears one of the fundamental AI prompts was to shut the subject's mouth. Upscaling. JFHJr (㊟) 23:17, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• If the image were to be used, it could be captioned: {{tq|Image used by Ekpa as his avatar on Twitter}} or something like that. Some1 (talk) 09:39, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :He used it on professional sites too, iirc. CMD (talk) 10:05, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::[https://www.biafrarepubl Yep]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:13, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::That would still be just a disclaimer and justification to let casual readers know why we've chosen a strange-looking image to illustrate the BLP. A decent article shouldn't need disclaimers or justifications. And a better (IMO) image has been offered. What do y'all think of it? JFHJr (㊟) 23:38, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• Sorry, but I don't consider the use of an AI-generated (or AI-manipulated) image in a biography of a living person at all appropriate. The fact that the individual 'approves' it really isn't that relevant. Readers shouldn't have to read captions to figure out why an image looks so strange. Which this one definitely does: uncanny valley indeed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:14, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Absolutely agreed. it is not better than no image - it's far worse. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:08, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• [https://www.flickr.com/photos/198559133@N04/52981718943 we could upload this one].... I think it's normal somewhat? Moxy🍁 19:37, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Everything uploaded from flickr to Commons on this guy has so far been deleted as flickrwashing, it has a long history. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::I guess we can try. Moxy🍁 20:23, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::This literally hurts my brain less to look at. In fact, it's a very good image, and I've less qualms about the datedness of this one than the content of the AI image. Thank you, Moxy. JFHJr (㊟) 21:40, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::This one...it actually looks like the subject and less like someone having a laugh in the MLB The Show player generator. I have no issues with this one at all. Nathannah • 📮 23:49, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::I nominated it [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Official_Portrait_of_Simon_Ekpa_(2023).jpg] for deletion, I'm suspicious. @Yann, do you feel like having an opinion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Deleted. Obvious Flickr license washing. Yann (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::Seems like a version of [https://yle.fi/a/3-9505807] from 2017. It's not impossible that the flickruploader is the copyrightholder, but it's not my default assumption per Ekpa-Commons history like Talk:Simon_Ekpa/Archive_1#Note_to_people_trying_to_add_an_image. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::If this same flicker account has been recognized in the past as having copyright problems we should blacklist it so the flicker bot doesn't automatically approve it.... this would save a lot of time for good faith editors. Moxy🍁 21:03, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::I think it was several accounts, but don't take my word for it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::If all the actual photos are flickrwashed, is there a reason to assume the base image before whatever was done to end up with what we have is free? The copyright would not be invalidated by modifications. CMD (talk) 00:45, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::There's a ticket at [https://ticket.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketNumber=2023092010004541] with the answer to your question. I can't see the content but am confident it's satisfactory. They really don't tolerate fake claims or copyvios. JFHJr (㊟) 02:37, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::I can't see that ticket either, but I don't see why or how they would know what the base image is. If their job is just to verify that the image uploader is the same as the image user, that process would not check this. CMD (talk) 08:29, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::Again, don't take my word for it, but iirc, the :File:Simon Ekpa portrait, 2023.jpg appeared on Commons before elsewhere online. Some Ekpa-Commons history:
• :::::::::*User_talk:Gråbergs_Gråa_Sång/Archive_8#Adding_image_to_Article_Simon_Ekpa
• :::::::::*User_talk:Gråbergs_Gråa_Sång/Archive_8#Official_notification
• :::::::::*[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:1st_Contributor#Your_account_has_been_blocked User_talk:1st_Contributor#Your_account_has_been_blocked]
• :::::::::*Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1138#Deceptive_contact_by_political_operators Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:52, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::I believe you about the edited image, I am openly wondering about the pre-edited image. CMD (talk) 10:17, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::My hypothesis is that we haven't seen that one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:23, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::If by "base image" you mean [https://yle.fi/a/3-9505807], obviously that 2017 pic has a copyright holder somewhere. It could be Ekpa, the party he was running for or a photographer, professional or otherwise. It doesn't seem to me that :File:Simon Ekpa portrait, 2023.jpg is a modification on that one, though the lapel pins are similar. I think one of them might be The Gideons International. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:42, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

The image of Nnamdi Kanu in this article does not appear to be of any particular helpful illustration of the subject, Simon Ekpa. This image is WP:UNDUE since it does not illustrate the subject in any way, but scant mention of a third party. We don't have Ngozi's face on this Ekpa article for good reason. The same applies here. It should go. What say you, all? JFHJr (㊟) 18:38, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:I agree. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 19:01, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:Agreed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:25, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you @AndyTheGrump and @Reading Beans. I'm removing it for now because I think we are 3 experienced editors with the same notion. Proponents for replacement can discuss here. JFHJr (㊟) 19:27, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

In an encyclopedia biography, you don't normally see chronology all over the place like it appears here. Any help streamlining by date and sectioning by topic will be helpful. I'll try to work on it as my time allows, but I hope another editor or two or three might get a head start. If something can't be put into chronological order because it fits best to something out of order, consider how to caption a new section or subsection. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 19:50, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:It' a bit sprawling, but roughly chronological... is the intent anyway. I've been thinking of making subsections to "Activism and separatism" of some sort, perhaps before and after 2023, sit-at-homes, reactions from Nigerian and Finnish authorities or something like that. Perhaps it's also possible to improve the sourcing by using in-depth sources with some perspective more and get rid of some "this just happened/Ekpa just said this on Twitter" sources. Btw, it would be interesting to see the motivation for his ambassador of peace award. Fwiw, here's some ABOUTSELF on that award:[https://us.upf.org/ambassadors] Apparently, you get a newsletter. Here's a comment on it:[https://www.google.se/books/edition/The_Mammoth_Book_of_Unexplained_Phenomen/YHCeBAAAQBAJ?hl=sv&gbpv=1&dq=%22Universal+Peace+Federation%22+%22Ambassador+for+peace%22&pg=RA1-PT112&printsec=frontcover] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:20, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

:Potentially useful sources at [https://www.hs.fi/haku/?query=%22Simon%20Ekpa%22&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=new]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:02, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

:On recent news, I think this source has it right: [https://factcheck.thecable.ng/fact-check-no-finnish-court-didnt-approve-simon-ekpas-extradition-to-nigeria/ FACT CHECK: No, Finnish court didn’t approve Simon Ekpa’s extradition to Nigeria] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:41, 25 April 2025 (UTC)