Talk:Taiwan#rfc 544246A

:zh:Talk:中華民國#地图补充

I was so confused. Kurgenera (talk) 13:30, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

I am tired to aruge ROC's map¯\_(ツ)_/¯--Kurgenera (talk) 15:18, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:Context. Slatersteven (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:Hi Kurgenera, zh.wiki is a separate and independent project, if you want changes there you will have to discuss it there. CMD (talk) 13:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::A user told: [https://www.mac.gov.tw/cn/News_Content.aspx?n=C07A4E0160AC69CE&sms=B69F3267D6C0F22D&s=85CD2958339DA00C]

::So he thought the Mongolia is not a De Jure territory of ROC. Kurgenera (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::We have some coverage of the 2002 shift discussed in that link at Mongolia–Taiwan relations. CMD (talk) 14:26, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:emm... I am eager to know why en.wiki put the map on this article... Kurgenera (talk) 14:25, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

: Since my English is not very good, please forgive me for relying on machine translation to explain the approach taken by the Chinese Wikipedia:

1. The country infoboxes on Chinese Wikipedia are intended to present the most current maps used by the respective countries, rather than deliberately selecting specific historical maps (for example, the article on Germany would not use a map from 1940).
2. The government of the Republic of China has recognized Mongolia’s independence multiple times since 2002, and considers Mongolia to be outside the scope of its constitutionally claimed territory.
3. After prolonged discussions, the Chinese Wikipedia community concluded that, following the Republic of China’s recognition of Mongolian independence in 2002, it was no longer possible to determine the remaining territorial boundaries. As a result, the community decided to use only maps based on de facto control.

: Of course, the conclusions reached by the Chinese Wikipedia community do not affect the practices of the English Wikipedia.--KOKUYO (talk) 15:03, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::"Show map of Taiwan (dark green) with ROC Mainland Area and historical claims (light green)" (my emphasis), we do not claim it is current. Slatersteven (talk) 15:12, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I understand the approach adopted by the English Wikipedia community after discussion. However, as I mentioned earlier, the point of the explanation above is not to use the consensus from Chinese Wikipedia to influence practices on English Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on North Korea, the maps used on Chinese and English Wikipedia are different. KOKUYO (talk) 15:21, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Sorry for my previous misunderstanding.:-X Kurgenera (talk) 15:25, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Then I am confused, as you asking us not to do something that another Wiki has done, if so I can assure you that what they decide has no impact on what we do. Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Sorry I hadn't know the result after the discussion of two communities:-X Kurgenera (talk) 15:31, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for letting us know about the translation. The process you describe at zh.wiki sounds very similar to the one we had. We had a very similar discussion, and similarly could not determine the remaining territorial boundaries. In the end we kept the historical map, and, as Slatersteven notes, marked it as historical. It sounds like it was a slightly different outcome to the same set of questions. CMD (talk) 15:17, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

{{closed rfc top|1=(Non-admin closure) This RfC is too malformed to continue. If anyone wishes to start a non-RfC discussion of this source they should feel free. If that discussion leads to the need for an RfC a new one can be created that includes a clear, neutral question.}}

The Cambridge Dictionary [https://web.archive.org/web/20231102164711/https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/taiwan previously defined] Taiwan as “{{tq|an island country in East Asia}},” but [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/taiwan it has now revised the definition] to: “{{tq|A large island to the east of China, together with some nearby smaller islands, that has its own government. Taiwan is claimed by the People's Republic of China as its territory.}}”

Some Wikipedia editors have resisted removing the word “country” because reliable sources have referred to Taiwan as such. However, I believe the Cambridge Dictionary is a representative and reliable source. Moreover, after the 2020 RFC, many reliable sources have adjusted their wording to avoid directly labeling Taiwan as a “country.”

Certain editors argue that “Taiwan” in English primarily refers to a country, while the island or geographical area is the primary meaning in Chinese. But as far as I know, the Cambridge Dictionary is written by British, not Chinese, authors. I'm not sure whether British people are more likely to understand English better than Chinese people.

Some editors claim that China's stance is irrelevant to Taiwan's definition. However, the Cambridge Dictionary has placed China's claim in a prominent part of the entry.

So far, I haven’t heard of China bribing the Cambridge Dictionary, nor have I heard of Chinese hackers infiltrating its website.

I hope the Wikipedia community will reconsider how Taiwan is defined. 49.157.47.20 (talk) 06:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Wikipedia articles are not dictionary entries. Titles describe content, not the other way around. Multiple topics with the same name are covered by WP:Disambiguation. CMD (talk) 07:18, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::It's worth noting that Cambridge did not add an alternative definition—they replaced the previous one. This may suggest they considered their earlier wording to be lacking in neutrality or appropriateness. 49.157.28.30 (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:1. The Cambridge dictionary is a single source; taking it as authoritative while ignoring all others would be cherry-picking.

:2. A general dictionary is not an RS for politics, anyway.

:3. This is not an edge case like Sealand; it's a country that's been independent for decades and has a population of over 20 million people. It's politically expedient not to call it a country, but there's no good faith argument that it isn't, which leads us to:

:4. This is obviously Chinese propaganda - likely indirect - intending to delegitimate Taiwan's status, and therefore a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 17:39, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Invited by the bot. It isn't just China that doesn't call it a country.....there is a long list of others who also doesn't, starting with the USA. It's contested and undecided. Calling it a country in the voice of Wikipedia is stating one of those opinions (and the less prevalent one) as fact. We should not do that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:21, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:This is a bit disingenuous. It is obvious that countries who do not call Taiwan a country do so at the behest of China, for purely political or economic reasons (much like legislators backing bills drafted by lobbyists). The topic of recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign country is a political one. Outside of politics, there is a host of reliable and academic sources that would define Taiwan as a country. Countries who do not diplomatically recognize Taiwan very often behave as if it is one.

:We can (and do) note that most countries do not call Taiwan a country. In fact, this is extensively covered in Political status of Taiwan. That does not change whether or not it is a country. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:34, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Not calling it a country is not the same as saying it is not a country. Slatersteven (talk) 14:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:If that's the case, why call it a country? Not doing so isn’t a denial of its status as a country, and it aligns with reliable sources. 49.157.47.20 (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::Because some RS call it a country. To challenge that, we need RS actually saying it's not a country, not just offering no opinion. Slatersteven (talk) 15:50, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Before the 2020 RFC took effect, the description using “state” had [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taiwan&action=history&offset=20200604213459%7C960780663&limit=5000 remained stable for quite a long time]. The main focus of the 2020 RFC was to choose between “country,” “state,” or another term—not to argue that Taiwan is not a state. The RFC did not reach a consensus that Taiwan is not a state.

::: Similarly, today we don’t need to prove that Taiwan is not a country. 49.157.28.30 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Are you proposing changing country to state? CMD (talk) 02:11, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::Well, According to the classification used in List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent, modeling the wording after that of Kosovo might be one option. 49.157.47.20 (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The Kosovo article states it is "a landlocked country". CMD (talk) 02:11, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::There have been several proposals to model the wording of "island country" after that of Japan, Indonesia, and others. In those instances, it seems the wording would even be consistent with the previous Cambridge Dictionary definition. I do not see how this recent change in Cambridge's definition would further the case of modeling wording after another specific country article. If anything, the notable aspect of the new definition is the fact that it clearly distinguishes Taiwan from China (as opposed to "mainland China"). Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:22, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

What question is this RfC trying to answer? "I hope the Wikipedia community will reconsider how Taiwan is defined" is not an appropriate topic for an RfC. See WP:RFCBRIEF. Phlar (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

• Malformed RfC This RfC is so poorly structured I actually didn't notice it was an RfC. Close as out of order and try again after an appropriate WP:RFCBEFORE and with an appropriately clear and neutral question. Simonm223 (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

{{closed rfc bottom}}