Talk:The Ugly Black Bird/GA1
GA review
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|result = Pass —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 08:55, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
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{{Good article tools}}
Nominator: {{User|Piotrus}} 09:46, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
Reviewer: LastJabberwocky (talk · contribs) 19:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
Hi, I read the article and performed minor edits, which we can discuss here, in case they are controversial. I checked links, sources, copyright situation everything is in order. Since I don't have any further comments I'm awaiting your response! —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 19:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
:I'm still hesitant about the etymology note, but cannot come up with convincing against it. Otherwise everything looks to be in order. Thanks, Piotrus and Nihil novi! Closing my review. —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 08:55, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
=General things=
Hid some of the brackets (my beloved as well :)) into notes for a better flow. —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 19:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
I noticed that some of the verbs have an inconsistent tense (at least one): "{{green|the book's supporters argued that Siedlecka..}}" and "{{green|They stress that..}}". Can you check if there are other cases? —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 19:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
:@LastJabberwocky I made a few fixes as well, although this is not my forte (I used ChatGPT to spot possible errors in tense). Thank you for your c/e, I'll ping an interested editor whose command of English is far superior to mine: @Nihil novi Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:58, 7 May 2025 (UTC) {{done}}
"{{green|Siedlecka's found that unlike the protagonist of his novel, Kosiński's life in occupied Poland was relatively uneventful, as he and his family successfully survived the Holocaust while hiding in a Polish village of Dąbrowa Rzeczycka. Her book has therefore successfully discredited the autobiographical value of Kosiński's The Painted Bird.}}" I would change tone to be more uncertain, since some of the critics argue that Siedlecka downplayed Kosinski's suffering and the discreditation isn't that straightforward. —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 19:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
:@LastJabberwocky Hmmm, any suggestions how to reword this? Since that issue is addressed directly in the next paragraph, the longest out of the three in the lead. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:29, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
::You are right, with the reception this paragraph is difficult to misinterpret. I would just change "found" to "concluded"; "uneventful" to "less eventful". The last sentence without "therefore" which sounds super definitive: "The analysis discredits the autobiographical value of Kosiński's The Painted Bird". —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 11:41, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
:::@LastJabberwocky Thanks - changed as suggested Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:02, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
For starters:
When this article speaks of "work", what is meant – a specific book or paper (the germane meanings of the corresponding Polish word "praca"), or the whole of someone's life oeuvre?
Something not touched on in this article or in the "Jerzy Kosiński" article: Did the false surname that was given during World War II to the future author of The Painted Bird, Jerzy Kosiński (and presumably to the whole family), by his father, derive from the Polish word for "blackbird" – "kos"?
Did the the meaning of "kos" influence the choice of title of Joanna Siedlecka's book Czarny ptasior ("The Black Bird" - with, in the English rendering, "Ugly" thrown in to reflect the negative connotation of the ptak ["bird"] variant, ptasior)?
Nihil novi (talk) 03:47, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
:@Nihil novi "specific book or paper", yes. Good point about "kos", but I've not seen this discussed in sources. Wonder if we could add this as a footnote on etymology without breaching OR... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:04, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
:::I have no further comment, waiting for {{ping|Nihil novi}} opinion. —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 20:27, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
:::It's means The Ugly Black Bird. I think it becomes clear deeper into the article. No worries her from my side. —LastJabberwocky
:::(Rrarr) 20:27, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
:@Piotrus:
:I agree. A footnote explaining the etymological background of Joanna Siedlecka's choice for her 1994 book's title, Czarny ptasior ("The Black Bird") – in the 2018 English-language edition, titled The Ugly Black Bird – would seem helpful, and no more OR than our established practice of translating and annotating foreign-language texts quoted in Wikipedia articles.
:It would explain the book's otherwise inscrutable title – which perhaps, given the etymology, would have better rendered Czarny ptasior in English with the single word "Blackbird". (The title would probably also have done better, omitting the ambiguous word "Ugly", which can refer both to an "ugly" liar or to a person's "ugly" features.)
:Nihil novi (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
::@Nihil novi If you'd like to draft a note here, I will try to add it to the article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:22, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Thank you. I've already placed a note #1 immediately after the article's title (i.e., after the title of Joanna Siedlecka's book).
:::I've also copyedited the article through the first paragraph of the "Reception" section. Nihil novi (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
::::@Nihil novi Thank you. Note my minor c/e [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Ugly_Black_Bird&diff=1289593768&oldid=1289390851 here]. Alsom as you might have noticed, the Czech translation was released as just Černé ptáče - but I am not fluent enough in Czech to comment on the subtleties of that title. (User:Darwinek?). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:56, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::I agree with your revision of note 1.
:::::The Czech word for "blackbird" is the same as the Polish word ("kos"), as confirmed by Wiktionary. Nihil novi (talk) 23:18, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
=Another pass=
{{ping|Nihil novi}} I'm still concerned about the note connecting the two "bird" titles. I couldn't find any sources making this connection. We can cite etymology for the words used in the polish title, but it still will be an original research. I like the connection, but we should remove the note (or at least keep it as a hidden text). —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 17:34, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
:What else besides the link between the Polish (and, incidentally, Czech) word "kos" ("blackbird") and Kosiński's surname -- and her clear reference to his book, The Painted Bird -- explains Siedlecka's sarcastically calling hm a "Black Bird"?
:The connections are clear to any Polish-speaker. Nihil novi (talk) 00:09, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
Another moment: you placed "needs explanation" templates, and I agree with one of the them (the first one). Can you share what explanation are expecting? Concerning the first instance ({{green|Siedlecka based her book on interviews that..}}), I think the sentence wants to say that Siedlecka, after conducting the interviews with the villagers who lived in kosinski's hometown, felt that the hometown villagers inspired the villagers from Black Bird. I think this sentence can be rephrased; outside of these two moments I have no more worries about the article. —LastJabberwocky (Rrarr) 17:34, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
:Re: "needs explanation" templates:
:1. "village ... whose inhabitants ... were a major inspiration for [Kosiński]": Those villagers saved the lives of Kosiński and his family. And that's how they inspired Kosiński's denigration of villagers in The Painted Bird?
:2. "She controversially writes that Kosiński's father ... collaborated with the occupiers – possibly with the German Gestapo and very likely with the Soviet NKVD; the latter likely caused arrests and exiles for some of the peasants who had helped Kosiński and his family survive the war.": Who is "the latter"? I suspect it was the NKVD, but that should be clearly, explicitly stated.
:3. "James Park Sloan writes that, while much of Siedlecka's book focuses on Kosiński's father, her "real scorn ... is reserved for the son, who turned his back on the family's saviors and vilified them, along with the entire Polish nation, in the eyes of the world.": Did Siedlecka really devote that much of her biography of Kosiński to his father? Nihil novi (talk) 23:43, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
::@Nihil novi Thank you for pointing out the unclear parts. Re 1) - yes. Re 2) - yes, the NKVD (or rather, his father's collaboration with them, to be precise). Re 3) I did not read it; I am just quoting what Sloan wrote himself (I think his text is available online; in either case, I am just quoting him, and his view is attributed). Thanks in advance for fixing this and other issues in the text! Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:37, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}}