Talk:Traditions of Pomona College

There's https://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/digital/collection/ccp/id/4910/rec/47, which is pretty good and will be available in the public domain next year, and :File:1923 Pomona College pole rush.jpg, which I used before I found :File:1914 Pomona College pole rush.jpg, which I think is a little better since it shows someone climbing. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

This is way overly picky, but just plopping it here, at some point if anyone has the [https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/fUdZDQEACAAJ?hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj95N768sTrAhUKhHIEHXMdALUQ8fIDMAp6BAgJEAQ "Art at the Edge of Los Angeles" book], we may want to convert the McGrew citation (which is excerpted from the book) to the book itself. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I placed extant traditions first, since those are going to be the ones that I anticipate readers are going to care more about. Per WP:RECENTISM, though, I didn't want to neglect the historical ones, so there's plenty about them here, too. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 10:43, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are some additional links for HMC pranks, in addition to the current citations, if anyone wants them for HMC's article:

• https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/67252/11-greatest-class-pranks-history
• https://cmcforum.com/2009/life/10152009-harvey-mudd-1-victorias-secret-0
• https://web.archive.org/web/20200831203553/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3A2-HEsCWJFeMJ%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.themuddraker.com%2Farchives%2F1517+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
• https://tsl.news/hmc-pranks-caltech-with-announcement-of-harvey-mudd-college-pasadena-campus/
• https://tsl.news/bringing-pranking-back-a-look-inside-mudders-late-night-caltech-prank/
• http://reasonableanswers.blogspot.com/2009/10/just-for-fun-intelligently-designed.html

{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

{{Did you know nominations/Traditions of Pomona College}}

I've learned that a photo of the sailboat prank was posted to the Pomona alumni group [https://www.facebook.com/groups/sagehens/?post_id=10154322856913248 here], viewable [https://web.archive.org/web/20201023090536/https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14606397_10154716570003413_9086262182152297440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=y3djxrLPcnQAX9dHbiW&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=978e07ccf67e3b6af263dfbe71d4da97&oe=5FB6B50E here]. The photo appears to be from the (presumably 1978) Metate. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:27, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

:I decided against adding an external image link to the sailboat photo, since I think one visual for the pranks section is enough, but if we decide otherwise in the future, the code for it would be

{{external media|width=230px|image1=[https://web.archive.org/web/20201023090536if_/https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14606397_10154716570003413_9086262182152297440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=y3djxrLPcnQAX9dHbiW&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=978e07ccf67e3b6af263dfbe71d4da97&oe=5FB6B50E Sailboat suspended from the ceiling of Frary Dining Hall]}}

Putting "elite" in the opening sentence of this article seems like puffery, and adding a footnote draws further attention to it. What would the article lose by removing it altogether? In the main Pomona College article "elite" is not used on its own, still less in the opening sentence; there are mentions of acceptance rate and rankings in the third paragraph of the lede, and of reputation further down the body, but "elite" on its own is vague and inherently subjective. Is elite the intended sense? If the college's "eliteness", however defined, is relevant to some of its traditions then this can be discussed and cited for those individually. {{u|Sdkb}}'s edit summaries here compared to here seem at odds. jnestorius^(talk) 22:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

:I used the word within a string of a few words that together provide basic contextual information about Pomona; the full string is {{tq|an elite liberal arts college in Claremont, California}}, plus the founding date. I think that having basic contextual information is useful for readers, since they shouldn't have to click through to Pomona's page in order to have a full understanding of the topic, but you're correct that they are not directly about the college's traditions, which is why I limited the description to only one parenthetical phrase within one sentence. I'd argue that each element within the string provides significant basic information: "liberal arts" describes the school's type, "Claremont" describes the location, and "elite" describes the overall character and reputation.

:

:Of these, the character/reputation is just as significant as the location and type (Pomona arguably has far more in common with, say, Yale, which has a different type and location but similar reputation, than it does with, say, Whittier College, which has a similar location and type but different reputation), and the WP:HIGHERED REP RfC result supported this viewpoint, but with the caveat that good sourcing is needed (as for any potentially controversial claim) because reputations are obviously a lot more subjective than locations. Thus I included the reference to establish the sourcing, and I have to say that I think it's pretty unimpeachable. The [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/us/affirmative-action-college.html Dana Goldstein New York Times article] alone is enough: it's a reported news article (not opinion piece) that appeared in print in the United States' newspaper of record, and it uses the exact phrasing {{tq|an elite liberal arts school}} to summarily describe Pomona. The other sources are also all outside experts writing for RS publications, and make similar assertions (e.g. the L.A. Times uses "prestigious", which would work fine as well).

:

:I hope that helps clarify some of my thought process. I can share on why I reverted the other edit you pointed to if you're curious (I can see why you might think it's inconsistent with what I just said above), but that's somewhat outside of the scope here. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:31, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

::I have a specific problem with the word "elite". You may not have to click through to the article, but you do have to click through to the references to see not just the evidence for the claim but, more fundamentally, what is meant in this instance by the word "elite". It might suggest, for example, that only rich people go there, or that it used to be restricted to WASPs. Or it might not. I don't know enough about US higher education to determine whether that specific word is the standard term for a specific tier of institution, but I would suggest a more NPOV term for an international readership would be something like "highly selective" or "highly ranked", either of which could wikilink to College and university rankings in the United States. jnestorius^(talk) 22:48, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

:::{{u|Jnestorius}}, that's reasonable; I'll switch it to "highly selective". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

{{Talk:Traditions of Pomona College/GA1}}

Official, but still possibly useful: https://www.pomona.edu/news/2024/08/22-cherished-traditions-continue-bring-pomona-college-community-together. Sdkb ^talk 18:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)