Talk:Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany/Archive 1

Leave it to Wikipedia to have an article about Ukrainian collaboration with Germany that trumpets the number of Soviet collaborationists from the Ukraine, citing some random online website, but never bothers to come up with an answer as to how many Ukranians were in collaboration with Germany, the topic of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B028:6719:641E:F4B0:9B3E:5978 (talk) 06:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

:This article is, in itself, pure propaganda. There seems to be an historical about face as to the numbers of collaborators as opposed to the millions who fought the Nazis. Who is this Katchanovski who has suddenly become the be all and end all for pro-Polish and pro-Russians editors? What makes his opinion the be all and end all just because he's published on Academia.edu: so are thousands of other academics with antithetical views. Let's quote universityherald.com for their opinion of the research available of academia.edu written as far back as 2016:{{tq|"Reasons Academia.edu is Not Reliable Anymore. Academia.edu is a website dedicated for education institutions. ... Academia.edu is a platform for academics and the counterparts. The website analytic identifies daily 'log in' from both, which means, it seems that general public also want to read research papers...}}

:1. Academia.edu is shifting to a private business model

:According to the Atlantic, the website owns 26 employees in 2015 and received capital of $17.7 million. The for-profit company is doubted whether it will sit well with some institutions.

:2. The research-sharing network has no affiliate in educational sector

:3. The University Affairs reported that, as a business model, the website does not mirror to what it's dedicated for. Jonathan Sterne writes in his account profile that he doesn't trust Academia.edu. He is doubtful whether Academia.edu is a trusted company to provide the service.

:It may require users to pay for subscribe or upload their research.

:With the website being a profit organization, this may lead to subscription fees or limited number of options in order to earn revenue so the website could still run. Kathleen Fitzpatrick her thought in [http://www.plannedobsolescence.net/academia-not-edu/ Planned Obsolescence] of how Academia.edu might request contributors to pay to access its features because the purpose is no longer about academics but a mind on sales and ads; but 'to provide trending data to improve decision quality for researchers'.[https://www.universityherald.com/articles/29263/20160422/3-reasons-academia-edu-is-not-reliable-anymore.htm 3 Reasons Academia.edu is Not Reliable Anymore] They hit that phase soon after this article was published.

:Furthermore, the media scholar who wrote the above also refuses to publish any of his paper to the website as he questions the unknown purpose of the knowledge sharing. Encouraging colleagues to do so; he also says that the papers are {{tq|"...being monetized by parasitic third parties'."}} They are a massive commercial enterprise who barrage you spam telling you you've been mentioned in 5/7/2 (pick a random number) if you sign up (known as payola and outlawed in the music industry). It has nothing to do with how universities are ranked for their research in all academic fields. The article has been turned into a piece of POV trash written years after the actual war, implying that Ukraine was predominantly a Nazi collaborator. May my grandfather's soul roll in the mass grave he was buried in after discharging himself from a safe bed in a Kiev hopital and rejoined the first unit heading for the Vistula–Oder Offensive as a Red Army officer aimed at Berlin, being killed a mere 6 months before the end of the war. Like many soldier, he was getting out of bed with injuries and going back to the front. Note that he was of Ashkenazi heritage turned communist, and married my grandmother of Zaporozhian cossack descent. How did their parents get along: a bit shocked at first, but soon became protective of each other. Everyone's demise was tragic, but I'm right off-topic already.

:This article need solid, WP:RS, and I'm tagging it as such. 06:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

::Welcome to fix. I renamed the page and made a few changes. One should re-write the lead from the scratch to summarize the actual content of the page. I am not sufficiently familiar with this subject to fix more. My very best wishes (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• Unsourced
• Which ethnicites participated?
• Were the Ukrainians drafted (and punished) or volunteered?Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The book describes the context, it should be quoted at the beginning.Xx236 (talk) 11:23, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Please explain which year do you mean as 'new'.Xx236 (talk) 09:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany&diff=1082216884&oldid=1078973545]. First of all, this page existed with the previous name for a couple of years, so the previous name (Collaboration in German-occupied Ukraine) reflects the current consensus. More important, it had such name for a good reason, same reason as for having page Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. The Nazi collaborators on every territory (Poland, Ukraine, Russia, whatever) had many different ethnicities, they were not only Russians, Ukrainians, etc. You can see it for example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland#Collaboration_by_ethnic_minorities here]. This is proper way to make such pages, i.e. to name such pages based on the corresponding territory or state, not by any ethnic group. My very best wishes (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

:This corresponds to scope of this page. Obviously, we are not going to cover collaboration with Nazi by Ukrainians who lived in many different countries. This page is only about the territory of Soviet Ukraine. Also note that people/collaborators were are talking about were Soviet citizens; there was no independent Ukraine as a country at the time of the occupation by Nazi Germany. My very best wishes (talk) 00:37, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

::This page should have not been moved without consensus to do so. Collaboration in German occupied Ukraine seems to be in line with other articles. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:01, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Wait, this Byelorussian collaboration with Nazi Germany has been moved also? - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:18, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, I agree about everything. My very best wishes (talk) 01:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

:That's actually kind of problematic. Collaboration in German-occupied Poland actually talks about all form of collaboration and all groups collaborating with Germans on the entire territory of the prewar Poland. While article Collaboration in German-occupied Ukraine focuses on Ukrainian collaborators and also it's scope is limited only to prewar Soviet Ukraine, eastern Galicia and Volhynia. For example collaboration in Carpathian Ruthenia or collboration of Tatars (just out of the top of my head) aren't mentioned Marcelus (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

::So that really depends on defining the scope of this page. Should it be about collaboration with Nazi at the territory of the Soviet Ukraine (as it was just before the attack by Germany in 1941)? Or should it be about collaboration by ethnic Ukrainians who lived in many territories occupied by Nazi Germany (Poland, other areas of the USSR, etc.)? I would say the former, i.e. along the lines of Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

:::You know what... I don’t think these article should exist at all. They are already covered here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland#Ukrainians_and_Belarusians] and should be merged to this article as well [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_the_German-occupied_Soviet_Union]. Don't you folks think? - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

:::::Indeed, I think that the most neutral and logical way to present such materials would be by the country (Poland, USSR, etc.). Looking in :Category:Collaboration during World War II, I can see only Ukrainian and Belorussian people appearaing as "Nazi collaborators". There is no such pages let's say about Chechen people, Armenians, Georgians. I suspect that creating such pages would be a manifestation of the anti-national sentiment in WP. So yes, I do agree these pages might be merged. But I am not sure it would be easy with the current organization of these materials. My very best wishes (talk) 19:32, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

::::::Well, I agree. What do you think Marcelus ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:21, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

::::::: It seems to me that the title should reflect the content of the article. And basically Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany is ok in this respect. Because the article describes various forms of collaboration between Ukrainians and Nazi Germany, and especially the activities of Ukrainian units in German service. Nor is this collaboration limited to the territory of contemporary or prewar (Soviet) Ukraine, since it began as early as 1939 on the territory of the General Government. In fact, we have articles: Luxembourgish collaboration with Nazi Germany or Cham Albanian collaboration with the Axis. There are also categories :Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany, :Category:French collaboration during World War II, :Category:Belgian collaboration during World War II, etc. , so the naming style isn't exclusive only to Ukrainian and Belarusian articles. Certainly the article does not refer only to the territory of Soviet or modern Ukraine, as collaborationist organizations were formed in Krakow or Weimar (Ukrainian National Army). BTW we really need article Russian collaboration with Nazi GermanyMarcelus (talk) 07:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

::::::::Yes, but France, Albania and Belgium were countries, so that would fit the logic "by country" (what is meant here are probably citizens of these countries, not ethnicity?). I should say this is not an area of my interest or something that I know in depth. So whatever. My very best wishes (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

::::::::: Soviet Ukraine was also a country, but this article is about Ukrainian involvement in collaboration with Nazi Germany not only on its territory. Also Albania was a country, but Cham Albanians were living in Greece Marcelus (talk) 07:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Lemberg280443.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:36, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ukrainians-germans-1941.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Listing them as collaborators is controversial. Xx236 (talk) 08:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

A citation was added by me from a published work as to the true description of this photo. The original link to its source is useless or broken as it directs to a pornography site. Gmw112252 (talk) 01:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

:Can you post that citation here? I deleted the porn site from the photo source. I need to bleach my eyes. --Malerooster (talk) 02:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

::@Gmw112252 - The extended confirmed restriction is imposed on edits and pages related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland, broadly construed. Standard discretionary sanctions as authorized by the Eastern Europe arbitration case remain in effect for this topic area.

::You can’t edits that topic area yet. Please propose your desired changes here. Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:09, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The Lemberg Mosaic, Jakob weiss Alderbrook Press 2010. Photo is captioned Lemberg not Stanislaw. Gmw112252 (talk) 19:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

At the moment, there is an empty sub-section in the section on "Collaborationist organisations", as follows: {{tq|Ukrainian units in the German work organization - Organization Todt OT-Einsatzgruppe Ost (Kiev)}}. In my understanding, the Ukrainian involvement in that was as slave labourers, many worked to death, but we don't have a source and there's nothing in the linked article. Seems wrong to me to list this as "collaborationist". Thoughts? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

::for what it is worth, I personally do not consider forced labor to have been collaboration. Perhaps of the survival variety but not ideological. I removed some of the Ukrainian sources used here from Collaboration with the Axis powers because they appeared to be hobby sites or possibly unofficial mirrors, SPS in other words Elinruby (talk) 02:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

In this last modification,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany&diff=1152825494&oldid=1152130840] a user added "including ethnic Russians, Tatars, and others," to the phrase: "Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazi Germany did so in various ways including participating in the local administration, in German-supervised auxiliary police, Schutzmannschaft, in the German military, and serving as Nazi concentration camps|concentration camp guards.".

The article is full of sources that speak of Ukrainian collaboration because ethnic Ukrainians were the most hostile to the Soviet government. Instead, after this modification, the collaboration is shown as equal between the various ethnic groups that made up Ukraine. Either the percentages of the population of the various ethnic groups that collaborated with the Nazis are given, or this sentence for me should be removed. Mhorg (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

: The RS, Snyder, specifically says that the collaborators were ethnically mixed.--Aristophile (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

:Ethnically mixed does not mean that proportions were equal. I personally don't think the numbers are worth chasing down but I do agree that we should do so if someone is going to want to say that everybody did it. I would expect a correlation between signups and the presence of nationalist movements fwiw. Elinruby (talk) 02:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Romania also occupied Soviet Ukraine. Would anyone oppose adding a section about collaboration with Romania and then maybe renaming the article accordingly? Like "collaboration with the Axis" or "collaboration with Nazi Germany and Romania"? Transylvania1916 (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

:I would object. A separate article titled Romanian collaboration with Nazi Germany would be a better idea. There's plenty of material available for a start class article.--FeralOink (talk) 21:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)