Talk:Warsaw concentration camp#Conspiracy theory presented as fact on Wikipedia
{{GA|15:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)|topic=History|page=1|oldid=1102340568}}
{{Talk header|search=yes|arpol=no|wp=no|disclaimer=no|bottom=no}}
{{tmbox
|image=File:Commons-emblem-issue.svg
|text=WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES{{pb}}
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021):{{pb}}
The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard.{{pb}}
}}
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=e-e}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|collapsed=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Poland |importance=mid }}
{{WikiProject Jewish history |importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Israel |importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Human rights |importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Germany |importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Alternative views |importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Skepticism |importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=GA|b1=y|b2=y|b3=y|b4=y|b5=y|German=yes|Polish=yes|WWII=yes}}
{{WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities |importance=mid}}
}}
{{Press
| subject = article
| author = Omer Benjakob
| title = The Fake Nazi Death Camp: Wikipedia’s Longest Hoax, Exposed
| org = Haaretz
| url = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-the-fake-nazi-death-camp-wikipedia-s-longest-hoax-exposed-1.7942233
| date = 3 October 2019
| accessdate = 4 October 2019
| subject2 = article
| author2 =
| title2 = Wikipedia page on fake Warsaw concentration camp was 15-year hoax — report
| org2 = The Times of Israel
| url2 = https://www.timesofisrael.com/wikipedia-page-on-fake-warsaw-concentration-camp-was-15-year-hoax-report/
| date2 = 5 October 2019
| accessdate2 = 5 October 2019
| quote2 = A Wikipedia article describing a World War II Nazi death camp in Warsaw may have been the online encyclopedia’s most enduring hoax before it was rewritten in August.
| subject3 = article
| author3 =
| url3 = https://www.corriere.it/tecnologia/19_ottobre_08/bufala-piu-antica-wikipedia-lager-varsavia-ecco-come-stanno-davvero-cose-e7e3563e-e902-11e9-a351-0f862d63c352.shtml
| title3 = La bufala più antica di Wikipedia è sul lager di Varsavia? Ecco come stanno davvero le cose
| org3 = Corriere della Sera
| date3 = 8 October 2019
| accessdate3 = 16 September 2021
| lang3 = it
| subject4 = article
| author4 = Daniel Blatman
| title4 = Opinion // Israel, It's Time to Call Off the anti-Polish Hunt
| org4 = Haaretz
| url4 = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-it-s-time-to-call-off-the-anti-polish-hunt-1.7995017
| date4 = 18 October 2019
| accessdate4 = 31 October 2019
| quote4 = The story has existed on Wikipedia for 15 years, as Benjakob writes. Haaretz termed it the greatest hoax in the history of the online encyclopedia. But it bears remembering that in the course of the period in question, Poland had a number of governments.
| subject5 = article
| author5 = Yevgeniy Shestakov
| title5 = Чего боится Польша? Для чего Варшава придумала "Полокост"
| org5 = Rossiyskaya Gazeta
| url5 = https://rg.ru/2020/01/09/pochemu-varshava-stremitsia-izbezhat-otvetstvennosti-za-holokost.html
| date5 = 9 January 2020
| accessdate5 = 16 September 2021
| quote5 = Израильская газета "Гаарец" рассказала о том, как в Польше создают фейковую историю. Издание обратило внимание на статью в Википедии, где говорилось о действовавшем в Варшаве нацистском лагере смерти, который якобы был специально создан для уничтожения поляков. [...] Но, как установили историки, такого лагеря для поляков никогда не существовало. [...] Тем не менее в Варшаве продолжают использовать лживую статью в Википедии, чтобы сочинять собственный Холокост - "Полокост". И на этом основании требовать новых репараций от Германии.
| lang5 = ru
| subject6 = article
| author6 = ((Piotr Konieczny))
| title6 = Mamy taką Wikipedię, na jaką zasłużyliśmy. Eksperci nie chcą tworzyć dobra publicznego
| org6 = Gazeta Wyborcza
| url6 = https://wyborcza.pl/alehistoria/7,162654,25773184,mamy-taka-wikipedie-na-jaka-zasluzylismy-eksperci-nie-chca.html?disableRedirects=true
| date6 = 12 March 2020
| accessdate6 = 16 September 2021
| lang6 = pl
| subject7 = article
| author7 = Pavel Richter
| title7 = Die erfundenen Gaskammern in der Wikipedia
| org7 = Der Spiegel (news website)
| url7 = https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/wikipedia-wie-sich-ein-erfundenes-vernichtungslager-15-jahre-lang-im-online-lexikon-halten-konnte-a-22f8b5f6-fc26-4794-b8a4-19bf8ab09638
| date7 = 25 November 2020
| accessdate7 = 6 December 2020
| quote7 = Es ist das Verdienst der israelischen Zeitung »Haaretz« und des Journalisten Omer Benjakob, diesen Hoax in der Wikipedia 2019 aufgedeckt zu haben. Der Eintrag (»Warsaw concentration camp«) wurde entsprechend korrigiert.
| lang7 = de
|subject8 = article
|author8 = Piotr Głuchowski
|title8 = Jak stać się ency? Czyli co ma zrobić Kowalski, by znaleźć się w Wikipedii?
|url8 = https://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/7,127290,28506772,o-co-sie-kloca-polscy-wikipedysci-gorace-debaty-dotycza-feminatywow.html
|org8 = Gazeta Wyborcza
|date8 = 30 May 2022
|accessdate8 = 1 June 2022
|lang8 = pl
|subject9 = article
|author9 = Stephen Harrison
|title9 = Wikipedia’s “Supreme Court” to Review Polish-Jewish History During WWII
|url9 = https://slate.com/technology/2023/04/how-wikipedia-covers-the-history-of-the-holocaust-in-poland.html
|org9 = Slate (magazine)
|date9 = 5 April 2023
|accessdate9 = 6 April 2023
| quote9 = One striking example of misinformation that formerly appeared on Wikipedia was the fake Nazi death camp, which was first reported by Omer Benjakob for Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper.
|lang9 =
|subject10 = article
|author10 = Shira Klein
|title10 = The shocking truth about Wikipedia’s Holocaust disinformation
|url10 = https://forward.com/opinion/550600/wikipedia-holocaust-disinformation/
|org10 = The Forward
|date10 = 14 June 2023
|accessdate10 = 16 June 2023
| quote10 = In one glaring hoax discovered by an Israeli reporter, Wikipedia claimed for 15 years that the Germans annihilated 200,000 non-Jewish Poles in a giant gas chamber in the middle of Warsaw.
|lang10 =
|subject11 = article
|author11 = Izabella Tabarovsky
|title11 = Wikipedia’s Jewish Problem
|url11 = https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/wikipedia-jewish-problem
|org11 = Tablet
|date11 = 25 July 2024
|accessdate11 = 25 July 2024
| quote11 = The story—a fiction—remained on the site for 15 years before the Israeli newspaper Haaretz revealed the problem in 2019. By then, the article had been translated into multiple languages, and its claims incorporated into multiple other Wikipedia articles. An estimated half a million people got exposed to the lie.
|lang11 =
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo = old(180d)
| archive = Talk:Warsaw concentration camp/Archive %(counter)d
| counter = 1
| maxarchivesize = 150K
| archiveheader = {{Aan}}
| minthreadstoarchive = 1
| minthreadsleft = 3
}}
Request for translation help
Note: This entire section was originally a discussion conducted on User talk:Deborahjay#Request for translation help between June 25 and June 27, 2022. It belongs here on the article page.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPIn8oBVzU#t=323s This video] features an interview with Gideon Greif, a historian of the Holocaust, but I don't know Hebrew. Based on your knowledge of the language, does the historian say that the Warsaw concentration camp narrative about 200K dead Poles is "fake history" or something similar; if not, what is the descriptor he uses for that story? Unfortunately, Google speech-to-text recognition did not really work out, and without the knowledge of the language, I seem to have no other option. Thanks in advance for the help. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
:@Szmenderowiecki if you don’t know Hebrew how did you know what that source say, who is being interviewed and why did you use it to source the text ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:08, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
::The source's inclusion is longstanding and can be tracked to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&oldid=922040090 this revision] by {{u|Francois Robere}}, October 2019; Piotrus has briefly [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&type=revision&diff=1048181351&oldid=1044306587 removed] the source as "non-English" and then put the "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&type=revision&diff=1048181825&oldid=1048181351 citation needed]" template on Greif. Also, even with the rubbish translation, it was fairly evident that Gideon Greif was critical of the Polish government (that led by the Law and Justice, to be exact). So the question is what exactly he said. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
:::But how do you know who is in the video. The original entry had 2 sources, this one [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-10-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-fake-nazi-death-camp-wikipedias-longest-hoax-exposed/0000017f-e367-d568-ad7f-f36f77000000] then the video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPIn8oBVzU] booth were referenced to three people --> Havi Dreifuss, Jan Grabowski and Gideon Greif. How do you know it is Greif in the video not Dreifuss? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
::::The speech recognition software is not as dumb as not being able to recognise "Havi Dreifuss" from "Gideon Greif", come on. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::Here is the diff [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&diff=next&oldid=1055186779&diffmode=source] where you, on November 14, 2021, reinstated the Hebrew video as a source next to the Gideon Greif. So you didn't understand what the video actually says because you don't speak Hebrew but you entered the source anyway. You used speech recognition software and you only identify that this is Gideon Greif talking on the video. Correct? Please confirm or elaborate further. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::I reverted Piotrus (or rather, reinstated from the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&oldid=1042756845 old version of the article I was basing on], together with the Polish version of the article, which was the basis of expansion by translation), because the only reason he proposed for deleting the video was because it was in Hebrew - he did not assert any problems with that video other than he couldn't understand it. I trusted whoever first introduced that video that the inclusion was correct (I now checked that it was {{u|François Robere}} - please explain yourself). Nothing sinister. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::@Szmenderowiecki Your edit wasn't a revert. You constructed your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warsaw_concentration_camp&diff=next&oldid=1055186779&diffmode=source own modification] using some material from prior versions, and some that it looks to me Polish Wikipedia translation. You recorded in your edit summary --> Quote:
:::::::{{tq|Expanded extermination camp section, omitting the disputed footnote + 2 sources from Zezza, one from some Hungarian historians, a book on the Warsaw uprising (Frantic 7), a book on the post-truth history (History in a Post-Truth world) mentioning the bogus plaques on KL Warschau}}
:::::::You are fully responsible for that edit and the sources you used. That's it from me here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:11, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
@Deborahjay - Direct link to the above conversation is used in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#GizzyCatBella this] AE report. Please don't archive for now. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:44, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024
{{Edit extended-protected|Warsaw concentration camp|answered=yes}}
Change conspiracy theory to theory and add clarification that 200’000 is the largest estimate given for gas chamber deaths, as well as adding different sources for the historiography surrounding the camp, such as Norman Davies’ Rising ’44 discussion and so forth.
The tone of this part is uncharacteristically and unnecessarily hostile and apparently reflects an editing conflict in which a bellicose accusation is implicitly made against another side, attempting to make the other ‘side’ as unacceptable as possible.
People should be extra careful when they feel the need to do so, especially when they have the power to do so, to make sure they’re not taking advantage of it.
This doesn’t require one to even change the overall conclusion.
The point is, if one is making the claim that a claim isn’t made with proper basis, one should adhere to a higher standard. One should try to be charitable towards others and their attempts if one can. I believe that there is a measure of unbridled hostility towards others here, which is very dangerous when given power. It seems like its goal is to get a “win” and attempt to discredit others, which is a temptation people should avoid if possible.
The idea that it is a “conspiracy theory” is somewhat spurious, no “conspiracy” is stated which would be required for it.
The highest claim for dead at a subcamp was 200’000 total.
The post, given discourse around it seems ideologically hostile. I’ve seen people even call it a “hoax” (!) which is incredibly disrespectful.
London Review of Books is the only source given.
Norman Davies noted discourse around the damp in Rising ’44.
https://x.com/Pusher555/status/1124039866512289793/photo/3
The language is definitely bellicose or hostile, treating the person as an enemy not even someone wrong. That does not fit the bar for discourse that this demands. 2A02:A310:E23F:400:8C39:3F2B:51BC:9D42 (talk) 05:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
:X.com? Slatersteven (talk) 09:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
:File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: X/Twitter is not a reliable source. (WP:TWITTER).
Location
I am almost certain that this site is more than a square metre in size. Please consider amending the location to an appropriate level of precision (1 second is around 30 metres, so decimals are less than that) 2A0A:EF40:32E:1801:F92F:8C60:A4BF:F07 (talk) 06:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)