Template talk:Archives#I think I've got it

@Mathglot The change to auto-generate broke my user talk page, where I use two archiving configs to archive certain messages instantly to a separate notifications subpage. The two configs have two different ages to prevent normal messages from being automatically archived to the notifications subpage. Currently, I set one of the boxes to not auto-generate, but I can't get the correct age to show. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

: {{Checking}} Mathglot (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

: {{u|Aaron Liu}}, thanks for adding this bug report. When the auto-generate upgrade was designed, it did not foresee the case where a page (like your Talk page) would have two separate archive configs on the page, and so when it looks for the config, it just picks the first one it finds and assumes that's the right one. For most pages, that works, but obviously for your page, which has two configs, it does not. The fix will involve a new optional parameter (name t.b.d. but maybe {{para|config_number}}; suggestions welcome). So after the fix, in your second archive config, it will look like this:

:: {{tlx|archives|title{{=}}Notifications|config_number{{=}}2|...}}

: Brief analysis: Template:Archives calls Template:Talk header/archivebotparse to do the parsing, and in a couple of places, archivebotparse calls {{tl|Template parameter value}} to grab the config. The third positional parameter (TEMPLATE-COUNT) currently is hard-coded to 1, which causes the problem in your Notifications archive box.

: Repair design: archivebotparse should pass the value of the new config_number parameter to {{tl|tmpv}} in position 3, passing {{pval|1}} as the default value if there is no such parameter.

: Testing: The design and implementation of the fix is quite simple at the sandbox level, but because the change affects both the {{tl|Archives}} and {{tl|Talk header}}, both highly visible templates, careful testing is needed before release – it needs to have a new test case added (ideally, a few contrasting ones) and both templates will have to be checked. I don't anticipate any problems with that, it's just that it may take some time. Are you okay with this for the time being?

: A good way to proceed imho, as well as to get you up and running sooner rather than later, is to go ahead and make the sandbox changes (one to archivebotparse/sandbox, and one to Archives/sandbox to invoke it), which could be done fairly quickly and then use your page as a tester. This would involve changing your {{tl|Archives}} invocations on your page to {{tl|Archives/sandbox}} instead, and adding the new param. If it works, great, and you'll be the first/only one to benefit from it for a while, while testing is ongoing. When it's fully tested and the new version is finally released, you just self-revert (i.e., go back to the regular, non-sandbox version on your Talk page) and it will continue working as desired. How does this plan sound to you? Adding {{u|Aidan9382}}. Mathglot (talk) 18:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

::Adding a template count to grab a specific instance would be fine. Also, you don't need to pass 1 as a default value if config_number isnt specified, since tmpv will default to 1 itself. The only remaining edge case that wouldn't (couldn't) solve would be if they used 2 different archiving bots actively, but that's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=hastemplate%3A%22User%3AMiszaBot%2Fconfig%22+hastemplate%3A%22User%3AClueBot+III%2FArchiveThis%22&title=Special:Search&limit=500&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns118=1&ns119=1&ns710=1&ns711=1&ns828=1&ns829=1&ns2300=1&ns2301=1&ns2302=1&ns2303=1 very rarely done], and generally for good reason, since it can get messy. You could potentially just allow the user to specify a certain bot if that's a case you also want to worry about. Aidan9382 _(talk) 19:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

::So TL;DR what I would need to do is change my archives templates to their sandbox versions after you lovely people finish construction? That sounds good to me.{{pb}}In my opinion there should be a way to actually disable the auto-generation. Currently I can't specify the archival age after disabling. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

::: {{ec}} Right, but we're not quite there, yet. There is a way to disable it: add {{para|nobot|yes}} to the invocation. Just tested this in Preview mode (without saving) on your UTP, and it works. (It leaves a rump statement, 'This page has archives' which should probably be removed, but the bot notice about archiving is suppressed.) This is documented at Template:Archives#Archive bot config, with an illustration in the #Usage section, but TemplateData needs to be updated for those using VE. Mathglot (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

::::What I want is for the statement in the first box to say {{tq|This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III.}} I have added the {{para|age|30}} parameter but it does not work. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

:::: You don't need to (and shouldn't) add that parameter; it is deprecated. The autogeneration derives it automatically from the config, preventing it from getting out of sync. Previously, it didn't work for multiple configs as in your case, but now that the sandbox version has been created and is in testing, it is usable on an alpha-test basis. See how your Talk page looks now, calling the sandbox instead of the live template, and if the page now looks the way you want it. Mathglot (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::Having nobot actually turn off the features would still be useful in 1. edge cases we haven't seen yet 2. my talk page, where the "Index link" currently links to the indices for the normal archives, yet is linked to in the notifications box.
Anyways, thanks for the help! This is still tremendously better. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::: I'm glad it's better, though I admit to not understanding the rest of that comment. I also don't understand the edit summary here about not wanting the "95 days", and something about instant archival; how can the archival be instant if you've specified 95 days in the config? Feel free not to explain if you're happy with how it is now, just wanted to say I'm pretty much in the dark, here, and if there might still be bugs that would affect performance for others with two configs, it would be better to know about it sooner rather than later. (I do understand my earlier mix-up in the links in the two configs which you subsequently fixed; no explanation needed there.) Mathglot (talk) 02:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::::The notifications config (theoretically) instantly archives anything that contains certain pieces of text. It has a longer duration than the other 30 days duration, so that Cluebot doesn't archive any normal messages to the notifications subpages.{{pb}}The notifications config also has nogenerateindex. As a result, Cluebot's generated indices are for the normal config only. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

::::::::Don't worry about this anymore, I've discovered the {{para|index|none}} parameter. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::: Note for Aidan: the long name of the parameter {{para|config_number}} causes some undesirable line wrapping in the view window that I'd like to eliminate or minimize as much as possible; am thinking of shortening it to cnbr, cno, cf, or just n. It will be used so rarely I don't think a highly mnemonic param name is needed for this param, and the shorter the better, to keep the preview code more legible for editors. How about just {{para|n}}? Mathglot (talk) 01:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I think just |n= might be a bit ambiguous when overlooking usages of the template ("n of what?"). |config_n= could be a good middle ground between the two. Aidan9382 _(talk) 13:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

::::::How about just {{para|cfg}}? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

::::::: That works for me; stand by... Mathglot (talk) 19:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

::::::: Okay, that change is in, now. This is a breaking change with respect to your Talk page, so if you wish to pick up the changes, please change your UTP sandbox call to use {{para|cfg}} instead of 'config_number'; thanks. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

{{od|:::::::}}

Next step: create some test cases. (Aaron, your UTP is a kind of live test case, and an initial hint that the code might be working, at least in that one case, but not anything like a complete demonstration of it at the level of confidence that we would need for a highly visible template.) I may not get to the test cases immediately, but anyone is welcome to create them. One idea would be to add a dozen or so configs to the /testcases page, and have the test cases link to them via the new {{para|cfg}} param. We would also have to have some regression tests to make sure that the far more usual case of only a single config per page still works properly. Mathglot (talk) 21:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Aaron: I have undone your changes to Archive template bot notice wording and the way param {{para|nobot}} works in Template:Archives/sandbox. Once the current changes for the multiple-config upgrade have been tested and released to live, then you can pick up the sandbox and make other changes to wording or to functionality of the params. Or, feel free to make your changes to Template:Archives/sandbox2, and develop them there. Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:Well, I didn't make any changes to the wording. The diff displays weirdly when inline, but all I did was take the nobot if condition out and wrap the entire td body instead, plus unindenting the originally wrapped part. I don't think it'll cause any problems. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:: I'm sure you're right, and if you want to take over this development and release the multi-config upgrade along with your changes at the same time, I am fine with that and I'll stop and hand it off to you, and you can revert my change and continue as you wish. But I won't continue or move anything to live under my sig with both sets of changes in there at the same time. Please lmk how you would like to proceed. Mathglot (talk) 20:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::Either is fine to me, though I'd prefer you deploy the multi-config upgrade first, as I am unfamiliar with such things and can always do an edit request later. Thanks again for your timeliness. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::: Okay, I'll carry on with the initial plan; thanks. Mathglot (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::Hey @Mathglot, how's it going? What things do we need to test before this is merged to the main template? Aaron Liu (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::: Hi, Aaron. Not forgotten, but somewhat in suspension for a couple of reasons: one is, I’m away for a few weeks and I can thumb-type Talk messages on my phone, but wouldn’t dare do template changes of this nature that way. But more importantly, there’s some stuff going on at Template:Talk header that should complete before this; it may be done already and then I can tackle this when I get back. Remind me around 20 June if you haven’t heard anything before that. And, thanks for the reminder! Mathglot (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::: Back, and should be able to look into this again soon. Mathglot (talk) 23:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

::::::::Hey @Mathglot, how's it going? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Aaron. I'm reviewing this again to remind myself where we are and see what needs to be done to bring it to completion. Sorry for delays and thanks for the ping. Iirc, everything is already in place in the sandbox, we needed a (or some) test case(s), and the sandbox testing version has been on your page for a while now, I believe. So, let's start there, first: has the sandbox version of the {{tl|Archives}} template been on your Talk page during this entire time, and what's your general impression? Has it been doing what it ought to, for both boxes, and have you have observed any issues? Have you tried fiddling with the params to observe different results, and if so, how did that go? Mathglot (talk) 19:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

:I've fiddled with it a bit and it's been alright on my talk page, though the sandbox talk using sigmabot seems to have broken. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

:: Thanks, I'll look at that. There's a {{tl|void}} template around the two configs, which shouldn't affect it, I don't think, so it may be something else. Mathglot (talk) 04:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

:: The {{tl|void}} has nothing to do wit it, as I thought. There are some layers of issues, starting with the fact that the Archives sandbox had moved on, so I restored it to the proper test version for testing this. (If others are working simultaneously on it, we might have to switch to sandbox2.) Next step, I have to look at the config parsing routine, to see if it is handling parsing of hours correctly, but I'm done for today. Mathglot (talk) 07:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

:::I don't think that having two {{tlux|User:MiszaBot/config}} on the same page is permitted. At best, one of the two will be ignored, but it's possible that the bot will use some parameters from one and some from the other. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

::::Reading the source code, it indeed doesn't support that. It just reads the first config and takes it (at least that's how I assume next() to work for Python iterators).
@Mathglot I guess we could just change it to a preview warning if {{para|cfg}} points to a Sigmabot config. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

::::: Interesting; I had been testing and doing some searching around, and had started to compose a message over at User talk:Lowercase sigmabot III/Archive HowTo, which might still be worthwhile, although I'd have to change it now. I wanted to compile some data first before writing it, and so here are two advanced searches showing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Talk%3A+insource%3A%2F%5C%7B%5C%7BUser%3AMiszaBot%5C%2Fconfig.%2A%5C%7B%5C%7BUser%5C%3AMiszaBot%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1 39 Talk pages] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=User+talk%3A+insource%3A%2F%5C%7B%5C%7BUser%3AMiszaBot%5C%2Fconfig.%2A%5C%7B%5C%7BUser%5C%3AMiszaBot%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1 50 user talk pages] with MiszaBot configs. (The searches will likely return results and time out before completing, so your numbers might be different.) I like the Preview warning idea. Am going to take a break and think about all this and where to go next, but I'm interested in your thoughts. Mathglot (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

:::{{reply to|Mathglot}} Regarding, "{{tq|If others are working simultaneously on it}}", I don't have anything to test right now. I will likely post to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility at some point in the future about best practices for "alt" parameters for icons. Also, a ping to {{u|andrybak}} in case I interrupted anything. Take care, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

:::: And at this moment, neither do I, as I have to switch gears and think about a possible new direction here. I've left a dummy edit welcoming a revert of my restoration of the test version for this; would have undone so myself, but there was a subsequent edit. Mathglot (talk) 07:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey @Mathglot, how's it going? Since no errors have arisen, my personal opinion is that we should just test it on a few more talk pages and merge it, especially since there are very few talk pages these changes would affect. We can always work on the bug reports later. That said, you're still the experienced one and I trust your judgement, whatever it is. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

: Thanks for the reminder, and sorry for the delay. I think I was trying to juggle too many things at once, and there was one other feature here that also dragged out that just got released finally, which should make it easier to attend to this one. Still a bit overwhelmed, but this is now top of stack for this template. Bear with me, and don't hesitate to ping again if it drags on. Mathglot (talk) 00:00, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

::Hey @Mathglot, sorry to bother you again (especially with all the other wonderful things I see you've been doing), but what's the current status of this? Also, would it be more productive if we tested the changes of sandbox2 at the same time? Thanks in advance. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

::: Acck, I forgot! Sorry. After the holidays? Ping me Jan 2 or 3? Mathglot (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

::::sure lol Aaron Liu (talk) 14:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

::::@Mathglot doot Aaron Liu (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

::::: Acknowledged; will have a look. Mathglot (talk) 11:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

{{tl|Aaron Liu}} Let's start up again. I'm actually not sure where we should pick up, but maybe with summarizing what there seemed to be agreement about. Perhaps one point is just to confirm that we agree that we don't support having two {{tlx|User:MiszaBot/config}} on the same page. If there is agreement on that (is there?) then we don't need the idea of the {{para|cfg}} param, iirc. But that leaves you with your Archives boxes not displaying the correct information, whereas before, they used to. Is that the gist of the problem? I may have to come back up to speed on this.

I apologize for all the delay and confusion. I think it is partly that a number of change issues hit Template:Talk header at the same time, and the more high-profile and visible a template is, the more careful (paranoid?) I am about making changes and testing them (we are up to four test case pages there, because we hit some template limits just having one of them. And then, when the automatic bot message thing came up there and the commonalities between that template and this one was mentioned, making changes there and importing them here got even stickier. I think that unfortunately, the issue here with the two Archives boxes was essentially collateral damage of the complexity of the Talk header template issues, the common issues between that one and this one, and my rather cautious way of proceeding. And on top of that, sometimes I just need to flee templating for a while and clear my head. Very possibly another TPE could've done this a whole lot faster (and you're always welcome to ask around; it's not like I own this or anything; I don't feel proprietary or OWN-y about any of it). But I feel I can look at it again now, so let's figure out where we were, or at least, where we want to get to, and put this to bed. Mathglot (talk) 04:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, we agree that we don't need to support multiple Misza configs, as the sigmabot doesn't handle that. I use Cluebot, which can handle it and which the sandbox archives template currently supports. I don't think there's any conflict here.
The talk header is definitely more important than a rare edge case for the archives box. Keep up the good work! Aaron Liu (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

:@Mathglot (re)boot Aaron Liu (talk) 18:59, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

:@Mathglot In my own limited testing on various pages, I haven't seen any problems. I'll start an edit request on the weekend if you don't mind. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:40, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

:: I'm good with that, if they get to it before I do, which given my history on this, seems likely. I seem to be spread too thin and should have allocated my resources better; apologies. Mathglot (talk) 07:23, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit request|TM:Archives|TM:Talk header/archivebotparse|answered=yes}}

Please replace the live templates with their sandbox versions, which adds a feature for selecting the desired config to show from multiple ClueBot configs on one page. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:00, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

: {{done}} * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:15, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit request|answered=yes}}

Please replace with sandbox (except for the |archive = Template:Archives/sandbox/ line).

When {{para|nobot|y}} is passed, the part after the horizontal rule in the box form (which normally says things like {{tq|This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.}}) will only say the meaningless {{tq|This page has archives.}} which yeah, that's why we're using this tempalte. This is a deviation from the previous behavior where one could hide this end matter and pointlessly takes up space. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:24, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|Aaron Liu}} The sandbox also needed other fixes, as you invoked {{tlx|Th/abp/sbx}} instead of {{tlx|Th/abp}}, but overall I think your request makes sense. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{done}}. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:22, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Does the automatic bot settings work if age is expressed as years (param value in y's)?

Have a look at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images. I can't understand why the template doesn't say "...when older than 1 year". Thanks CapnZapp (talk) 11:59, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{replyto|CapnZapp}} For {{tlux|User:MiszaBot/config}}, {{para|algo|old(1y)}} is not a valid value. You should use {{para|algo|old(365d)}} or similar. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::{{replyto|Redrose64}} Thanks. I now understand that while the bot code understands the y unit, the template code that too looks at the same parameters does not. CapnZapp (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::@CapnZapp Actually, the bot code does not: {{tpb|sigmabot doesn't actually support years as a unit - it's either days, hours, or no suffix (which gets treated as seconds) - see User:Lowercase sigmabot III/Source.py where is says def str2time(s: str):|id=c-Aidan9382-20250620070200-Aaron_Liu-20250620015200}} Aaron Liu (talk) 11:16, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Wow. Thank you. CapnZapp (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

...but the template does not appear to extract/display this information. The documentation doesn't say whether this is a bug or because it's simply upcoming.

I suggest we either implement this or undeprecate the parameter. Currently there seems to be zero way to express:

• your talk sections aren't archived despite being old enough because the bot is instructed to always leave N sections
• either to not empty the talk page outright, or to prevent the disappearance of the Table of Contents (which only automatically appears when 4 or more sections are present)

CapnZapp (talk) 12:03, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:It is displayed, though: minthreadsleft is 2 on my talk page and the box says {{tq|when more than 2 sections are present.}} Aaron Liu (talk) 13:41, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:: Unless I'm mistaken your user talk uses {{tl|archives/sandbox}} Not sure what's up with that. Regards CapnZapp (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::CapnZapp, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AComparePages&page1=Template%3AArchives&page2=Template%3AArchives%2Fsandbox there's no difference]. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:50, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::That was a testing thing no longer needed. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:00, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{replyto|CapnZapp}} Where is this deprecation explicitly stated? I don't see it at User:Lowercase sigmabot III/Archive HowTo. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::He's talking about this template, archives. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:00, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::No. I don't get that. Template:Archives should follow the implementation of the archiving bots, not dictate how they operate. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:21, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::This does follow. It's just that the original manual inputting of archive parameters was replaced by automatically finding the archive parameters. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:38, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::: {{replyto|Redrose64}} Yes, what was deprecated was the manual addition (to Archives and Talk header) of what the instructions told the bot to do. When these templates was updated to automatically look at those instructions, the ability to (and need for) manual parameters disappeared.

{{od}}

Okay, so back to the matter at hand. The people that updated these templates to automatically extract the bot parameters for display to the reader forgot about or outright skipped {{para|minthreadsleft}} but still deprecated the template, thus leaving us with no way to convey the above information to the reader (illustrated by the bulleted examples in the first post of this section above).

People with the technical know-how, please extract - and display - the {{para|minthreadsleft}} bot parameter to the reader as well. Or, if that is somehow deemed impossible, undeprecate the "manual" parameter (and display that) so the ability to display minthreadsleft isn't lost. Thanks CapnZapp (talk) 21:51, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:It is displayed, thougH? Again: {{tq|minthreadsleft is 2 on my talk page and the box says {{tq|when more than 2 sections are present.|q=y}}}} Aaron Liu (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::@CapnZapp, on what page do you see it missing? The template on this talk page says, "{{tq|This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.}}" The template seems to check the bot's config via {{tl|Th/abp}} at line 49. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:50, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't see any. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Timeshifter like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AArchives%2Fdoc&diff=1295435815&oldid=1294866954 this]? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 19:01, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks! --Timeshifter (talk) 22:12, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

On talk pages without a {{tl|talk header}} there is no way to know of the archiving unless one adds {{tl|archives}}.

People may prefer a horizontal archive banner instead of the right-floating archive box. It would be nice if the banner was narrower. Especially if there are other top of the page notices and banners.

One way to narrow the banner is to remove the filebox icon:

{{archives|banner=yes|image=none}}

{{archives|banner=yes|image=none}}

The banner could be made narrower by decreasing the space above and below the row of archive numbers.

We could also move the small text mentioning ClueBot or Sigmabot, the archiving period, and the minimum number of threads.

It could be moved next to the archive list. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:27, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:The software wraps that line in a paragraph element. The default paragraph style is a 1em margin above and .5em margin below. This is where the spacing comes from. I tried putting a div there in the sandbox which seems to only work some of the time:

{{archives/sandbox|banner=yes|image=none}}

:You're welcome try ideas out in the sandbox, but the template already feels a bit complicated. Good luck, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::I was thinking the same about it being too complicated. I suggest making it a duplicate of the bottom of {{tl|talk header}}.

::I don't know how to do that though. {{tl|talk header}} is complex and uses Lua too. But someone with knowledge could just copy the parts dealing with the archive banner at the bottom of {{tl|talk header}}.

::--Timeshifter (talk) 11:43, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The sandbox version currently creates [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Archives/testcases/banner&action=info#Lint_errors Linter errors] on the /banner testcases page. I tried to sort it but was unable to do so in a helpful way. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:09, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I saw that; thanks! At first, I thought there would be a quick solution, but I'm not interested in trying to puzzle out the template if it means rewriting some large chunk of it, and so I will move on to something else. Timeshifter is probably right about how the template should display if someone else wants to puzzle through it, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:40, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{re|Rjjiii}} I left a request for help here:

:::::Template talk:Talk header

:::::--Timeshifter (talk) 14:45, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Fixed the lint errors. For some godforsaken mysterious reason the static list's new table row was hacked in as an interruption to the existing table row instead of sanely after it: Special:Diff/1296357316 Aaron Liu (talk) 14:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm fairly sure the banner style uses pretty much the same code as the bottom of {{tl|talk header}}. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:02, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

{{unindent|::::}} {{u|Aaron Liu}} The result is different though. {{tl|talk header}} uses a tooltip to make things more compact. See it in use here: Template talk:Talk header.

Would it be possible to get the same result for the {{tl|Archives}} horizontal banner? --Timeshifter (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:It's probably possible (with a little wrangling because currently the footer area is shared between the box and banner versions), but I wonder why you would not want a talk header, not want the ultracompact box version of the archives, and not want the single footer line at the bottom? I understand not liking the vertical whitespace that RJJ removed but what's wrong with a single, small line more banner height? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:07, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::On my screen the small-print takes up 2 lines. Many people don't feel the need for the {{tl|talk header}} on all talk pages. Some people dislike the box version of {{tl|archives}}. I prefer the horizontal version because it doesn't mess up the talk, no matter the screen width. Many talk pages have a lot of stuff at the top, and saving every line counts. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::{{u|Aaron Liu}}. You wrote at Template talk:Talk header that Lua is not used for the archive-banner part of {{tl|talk header}}. So I guess that makes it easier for someone to copy over the code for the archive-banner part to here. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Yeah, I'm doing that right now. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Of note is that this wrangling duplicates the code used to generate the message describing the archival scheme. But it would make sense to make the template look like the bottom of talk header, which could also transclude this template so we don't have much duplication. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

{{unindent|:::::}} Yeah, that would make things a lot simpler in the long run. I hope this template shows itself even before the archive is created. To let people know that archiving has been set up. It would be missing the search bar and archive list of course, at that point. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:Does it not show? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:16, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::Nothing shows until an archive is actually started. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Could you give an example? I'm fairly sure it shows as soon as User:MiszaBot/config or User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis is put on the page. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Here is an example with {{tl|talk header}} and Cluebot:

::::Talk:List of counties by U.S. state and territory

::::In case someone reverts me here is the revision:

::::https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_counties_by_U.S._state_and_territory&oldid=1296394849

::::--Timeshifter (talk) 19:21, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that's talk header's independent version's fault. You're right that that's the behavior for talk header and I think that should be changed as well, though I think the best way to change things is replacing TM:Archives with TM:Archives/sandbox, and then replacing the duplicate implementation in TM:Talk header with {{tlg|archives|image{{=}}none|tooltip{{=}}yes}}. If you think the sandbox version (shown below) is good to go, I'll file an edit request! Aaron Liu (talk) 19:28, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

See Template:Archives/testcases/Smoke test#Talk:France. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|Aaron Liu}} Thanks! I like the horizontal banner with the tooltip:

:{{Archives/sandbox|root=Talk:France|banner=yes|tooltip=yes}}

:{{Archives/sandbox|root=Talk:France|banner=yes|tooltip=yes}}

:Some wikitext coding is showing in the tooltip.

:I think if the tooltop parameter is not used, then the tooltip should be used by default. I am still seeing 2 lines of small text sometimes on my monitor. If people want the longer text, then maybe do it via a parameter like text=yes, or something.

:--Timeshifter (talk) 19:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::I don't think we should make that the default as I like big banners to seem "fulfilling" and this is the first time objections against the footer were brought up, so more editors probably prefer the footer.
{{tqb|Some wikitext coding is showing in the tooltip.}} Should be fixed now. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:26, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I suggest asking at Template talk:Talk header if they want the default to be the narrower version. That is what they have now. I have seen some animated discussions there about making the talk header bigger for this and that suggested addition. They like the thing as a whole to be narrower.

:::So if this is to possibly be a template that is transcluded into the talk header, then I am pretty sure they will want it be narrower as a default. When the small text takes 2 lines as it does now on this 1080p monitor sometimes that means the banner without the tooltip is 4+ lines tall. Versus the tooltip banner at 2 lines total. That's a big difference on a talk page with a lot of other project banners, contentious topic banners, and so on.

:::Maybe the transclusion can transclude the narrow version, and allow the taller version as a default for the separate horizontal {{tl|archives}} banner.

:::But I think {{archives|banner=yes}} is easy to remember, and so it should have the tooltip.

:::Maybe show the longer text only when no archives have been created yet. Because there will be no search form or archive list to make the banner taller. The text could be normal size in that case. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't think it's sensible to ask Talk Header what they think about Archives's configurations they don't use. No matter what the default is, it doesn't affect them. I think you should gain consensus to make that the default at somewhere more visible than Talk Header's talk page, perhaps Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines. In the meantime, if you have no other suggestions, I'll make this an edit request!{{pb}}{{tqb|Because there will be no search form or archive list to make the banner taller.}}There will. As I said above the hiding of the template is something only done by Talk Header and not Archives.{{pb}}{{tqb|Maybe the transclusion can transclude the narrow version, and allow the taller version as a default for the separate horizontal {{tl|archives}} banner.}}That is what I would do Aaron Liu (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

{{unindent|:::::}} I guess since {{tl|talk header}} could transclude whatever version its editors decide on, then what you do with the {{tl|archives}} banner by default doesn't matter to them.

I am confused by one thing you said. Are you saying there will be a search form and archive list when there are no archives created yet? I wasn't saying to show nothing. You can show the text or the tooltip still. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{tqb|Are you saying there will be a search form and archive list when there are no archives created yet?}}{{pb}}Yes. There is no mechanism within Archives itself to hide those by itself and I don't see why you would want to hide those. Though now that I think about it that probably needs consensus at Talk Header first; I'll ask. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:53, 20 June 2025 (UTC)