Template talk:Lee Jae-myung series#Convert to navbox for bottom

Tagging editors of this sidebar @Rushtheeditor @Kaito-san @Jbh26781 and @Freedoxm

Could we convert this to a navbox for bottoms of articles instead? A la {{tl|Park Chung Hee}}. I'm really not a fan of sidebars because they cause issues with MOS:SANDWICH, preventing us from putting images (usually of early photos of people/things) in articles. Navboxes at the bottom don't have this issue. Because at present, this sidebar is making it difficult to have a picture of Lee Jae-myung as a child without sandwiching. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 01:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:This template is also transcluded to Cabinet of Lee Jae-myung, which does not have this sandwitching issue you're describing. Also, as more events of Lee's presidency unfolds, it's only probable that this is going to be transcluded to more articles. Also, MOS:SANDWICH primarily applies to text, not series boxes. For an example, see Yoon Suk Yeol. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 06:26, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::# First sentence is not a proper defense; this box can be applied in various articles where sandwiching may or may not be an issue. It's already an issue in Lee Jae-myung, arguably a more important article than the one you mention.

::# Second sentence is not a point of contention; I never mentioned the lack of use as being an issue in the first place. It actually works as a counterargument against your point; the more articles this gets used on, the probability of sandwiching being a concern increases.

::# MOS:SANDWICH {{tq|How­ever, a­void sand­wich­ing text be­tween two im­ages hor­i­zon­tally op­po­site each other; or be­tween an im­age and an in­fo­box, nav­i­ga­tion tem­plate, or sim­i­lar.}} The issue is text getting squeezed in between an image and navigation template. So yeah, this template can causes/already causes that issue to happen.

::None of the points you brought up are effective counterarguments. I'm pretty firm on this template being a bad idea; think we should do a navbox at bottom instead. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 06:30, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Let me point out a couple of things.

:::#If you look at series boxes like Moon Jae-in's, Park Geun-hye's, Yoon Suk Yeol's, and others, they all have South Korea's presidential seal and signature. There is no consensus right now to convert them into navboxes at the bottom, nor to remove the seal and signature from them.

:::#The MOS provides an example as you're reading through it. It depicts two images sandwiching text. The key word is text, i.e. raw text. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 08:01, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::# WP:OTHERCONTENT I may propose the other series boxes get converted to navboxes at bottom as well. Even if that proposal gets rejected, I may propose the stylistic and unencyclopedic elements like seals and signatures get struck as they're purely stylistic.

::::# There's a step in reasoning that you're missing here. Our goal is to not sandwich text, you are correct on that. To achieve that goal, we try to avoid having two floating elements on both sides of the page. In this case, the floating elements are 1. a picture and 2. a sidebar. To prevent the sandwiching text from happening, we are encouraged to remove either one of those two elements. You want #2 to stay, so #1 arguably has to go. My point is that #2 should be the first to go; I'd rather have pics of important politicians and topics than a sidebar.

::::grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 08:08, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Just a friendly reminder that WP:OTHERCONTENT is an essay, not a policy or guideline. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 08:18, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I'm aware, I cited it because I agreed with the essay. There's nothing preventing me from proposing that those other sidebars are modified similarly; I think I have a good shot at getting my proposal to pass. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I have added it as a listing on WP:3O. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 08:33, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{outdent}}

style="border-top: solid thin lightgrey; padding: 4px;" | Image:Searchtool-80%.png Response to third opinion request:

style="padding-left: 1.6em;" | There seems to be a MOS-based argument to convert to a navbox in order to comply with MOS:SANDWICH. The MOS page does demonstrate with two images, but the prose is clear that it also applies to navboxes and sidebars. The main argument I'm hearing against the change is that other articles do it differently. I was unable to find a policy that codifies this as a reason to change or retain something. As such, I concur that this sidebar should be changed to an infobox per grapesuregon. Also mentioned was a presidential seal and signature; I'm not sure what that is referring to. If it's a point of disagreement, please provide context if you'd like me to opine. EducatedRedneck (talk) 17:13, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:My suggestion wasn't to change the sidebar to an infobox, it was to change it to a navbox that typically goes at the bottom of articles, like {{tl|Park Chung Hee}}.

:Also, the point on seals and signatures is: if we do keep this box as a sidebar, should it have these decorative elements (the two images in the sidebar at the bottom)? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Lee_Jae-myung_series&oldid=1294043754] I'd argue no, because they're purely decorative (little encyclopedic value) and take up space, which could make the sandwiching worse. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::My mistake. Still, that approach appears to be backed by policy. As for the seal and signature, if it's in a navbox at the bottom, then sandwiching shouldn't be a concern. Other similar navboxes do have those elements, so I don't think they're out of line if there's no policy-based reason to remove them. If the sidebar remains as a sidebar, I would agree that it may be prudent to remove them. EducatedRedneck (talk) 19:32, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:The presidential seal and signature you see on the bottom of most of these sidebars were removed from this sidebar while this disagreement was ongoing, and an attempt to restore them was reverted. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 19:51, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::Kaito-san, reading back my tone was a little sharp, I apologize. Would you like us to try an RFC? I genuinely would like the other SK presidential sidebars to be converted to bottom navboxes as well. Think RFC would be appropriate for that grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 20:03, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree with this resolution. RfC started below. Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 20:41, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1752181276}}

{{rfc|tech|rfcid=48B09EC}}

I'm starting this RfC after a dispute came to the suggestion to start an RfC on whether to convert Lee Jae-myung's and other former South Korean presidents' series sidebars to navboxes for the bottom of articles. This is primarily dealing with interpretation of MOS:SANDWICH, which says that one should avoid sandwiching text horizontally between two images, or between an image and an infobox, navigation template, etc. For the dispute of concern, see Template talk:Lee Jae-myung series#Convert to navbox for bottom, which also got a third opinion. As of this RfC being started, the presidential seal and signature have been removed from the template, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ALee_Jae-myung_series&diff=1294044701&oldid=1294043754 an attempt to restore them was reverted].

1. Keep: Keep the series sidebars unchanged.
2. Remove images: Remove the presidential seal and signature found on the bottom of series sidebars.
3. Convert to navbox: Convert to a navbox for the bottom of related articles.

Kaito-san (talk/contribs) 20:41, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

• Convert to navbox; I'm one of the two original parties in the discussion that sparked this RFC. My reasoning was already given above. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• {{Comment}} This "issue" is not limited to the South Korean President's articles. Articles for presidents of other countries—such as the United States, France, Italy, Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, the Philippines, and others—also use the same template (i.e., sidebar) design, which appears to be for consistency. If MOS:SANDWICH is considered to be violated in the South Korean President's articles, then by the same reasoning, these other articles would also be in violation. Discussion of such style and compliance matters is generally the purview of WT:MOS, and RfCs about the interpretation or application of the Manual of Style should be held there. I therefore maintain that this RfC should be moved to WT:MOS for broader input and consistency, since this "issue" is clearly not isolated to the South Korean President's articles, regardless of whether this RfC is notified elsewhere. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:31, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• :I agree with this, but I'm a bit worried about the scale of that discussion. Will be harder to prep for and get a general discussion to pass. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 16:06, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::That's a fair point about the scale. I'd like to mention that a 2020 RfC at WT:MOS addressed the general issue of sidebar navigation templates in the lead section of articles. That discussion resulted in guidance discouraging—though not prohibiting—the use of sidebars in the lead when an infobox or image is present, and emphasized handling these situations on a case-by-case basis. While that RfC did not specifically address MOS:SANDWICH concerns, it is relevant because the current template style for heads of state articles (including newly elected presidents as of 2025) appears to reflect that established approach, and this template style existed prior to the 2020 RfC and was not impacted by its outcome.
• ::Given that MOS:SANDWICH may be a newer or evolving concern, and since the use of navigation template/sidebar styles and potential concerns are not unique to South Korean President articles, addressing the issue piecemeal risks inconsistency and confusion across Wikipedia. While WT:MOS discussions could possibly be large, they provide a centralized venue to achieve consensus and clarity for everyone editing, or potentially editing, similar articles. Perhaps the moved RfC could be carefully scoped—framing it specifically around sidebar placement and MOS:SANDWICH in articles about heads of state only, for example—to keep the discussion focused and manageable. Either way, for any outcome to stick and be applied consistently, broader input seems necessary. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 18:05, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::Agree on all that. Will do some thinking. I'm busy irl and seems a big project, so may need to wait if I'm the one to take the lead. Welcome others to take lead instead. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• Side bars and horizontal navboxes are not mutually exclusive. However, in the Yoon Suk Yeol article example given here, a sidebar should not be used per WP:LEADSIDEBAR as an infobox is present. CMD (talk) 12:24, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• Convert to navbox. As others have pointed out WP:LEADSIDEBAR says, for good reason, that we should not have a sidebar here ({{tq|The placement of a sidebar in the lead is generally discouraged}}). On my laptop, the sidebar at Lee Jae-myung is about as wide as the text beside it; this really isn't worth it for a sidebar with at most two useful links (I don't find the election links useful), all of which should be linked in the article already.

: @Paper9oll – I often find sidebars disruptive, especially now that Vector 2022 has narrowed the width of our articles, making sandwiching more common. Not sure about you, but many experienced editors don't realize this because they use custom skins. However, I would prefer resolving the issue in this one case before moving on to the broader issues. Toadspike [Talk] 11:24, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::Am I missing something? I don't see the presidential seal and signature in any of these navboxes, not even in the revision history. Anyhow, I don't think they're necessary, since the signature is already in the infobox and the presidential seal doesn't add any information. I also recall hearing that either the seal or the flag we use is incorrect...I have no evidence for this though. Toadspike [Talk] 11:32, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm also using Vector 2022 just not on the Standard Width but on the Wide Width (changed using the Appearance on the right sidebar), bad habits and muscle memory (Vector Legacy) can't change, on my 14" laptop. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:42, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::For some reason visual preview not showing either anymore. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Lee_Jae-myung_series&diff=prev&oldid=1294009079] if you look at source code changes you can see me removing them here. An IP adds them back afterwards. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::Responding to overall point. I think I agree that I'd like to resolve this local issue first before moving to a broader RFC. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 11:46, 8 June 2025 (UTC)