Template talk:Nihongo#Hiding question mark

Looking at an article like Hikikomori, the term "Hikikomori" is in a significantly larger font size than surrounding text, which looks really unprofessional. Is there a good reason for this? (I'm on Safari on a Mac, in case that matters.) Toadspike [Talk] 21:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

:For {{tlx|nihongo}}, the ordering of parameters is:

::{{Nihongo|<{{var|english}}>|<{{var|kanji/kana}}>|<{{var|rōmaji}}>|<{{var|extra}}>

:That mess at the start of Hikikomori is:

::{{nihongo||ひきこもり {{lang|en|or}} 引きこもり| Hikikomori| {{small|lit. }}"pulling inward, being confined"|lead=yes}}

:::{{nihongo||ひきこもり {{lang|en|or}} 引きこもり| Hikikomori| {{small|lit. }}"pulling inward, being confined"|lead=yes}}

::::{{code|lang=html|{{nihongo||ひきこもり {{lang|en|or}} 引きこもり| Hikikomori| {{small|lit. }}"pulling inward, being confined"|lead=yes}}}}

:In the final rendering, 'Hikikomori' is marked up as ja-Latn. There have been times when editors have complained that {{tld|nihongo}} or it underlying Module:Lang is doing something funny with fonts. Neither of these apply fonts; that is the responsibility of your browser

:

:Does what you are seeing look like this:

::Hikikomori

:::Hikikomori

:With my browser (chrome win 10), 'Hikikomori' isin the above example is rendered with a finer slightly smaller font. Some browsers don't properly distinguish between the lang="ja" and lang="ja-Latn" html attributes.

:

:Also, the gloss in <{{var|extra}}> should be using single quotes.

:—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

::Thanks for the explanation. If I understand correctly, we're sticking with this because it's correct markup, and browsers just happen to display it in an ugly way? Toadspike [Talk] 09:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

:::Yes.

:::—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

{{TPER|answered=yes}}

I request a method to specify the separator used between the Japanese text and {{code|extra}} parameter for use in the lead paragraphs, as it currently is not possible. take the following text:

: {{!xt|{{Nihongo|Satoru Iwata|岩田 聡|Iwata Satoru|extra=December{{nbsp}}6, 1959{{snd}}July{{nbsp}}11, 2015|lead=yes}} was ...}}

the correct formatting would be with a semicolon, not a comma, after the Hepburn romanization and before the date.

: {{xt|Satoru Iwata ({{langx|ja|岩田 聡}}, Hepburn: {{Transliteration|ja|Iwata Satoru}}; December{{nbsp}}6, 1959{{snd}}July{{nbsp}}11, 2015) was ...}}

one simply option would be to automatically change it to a semicolon whenever {{para|lead|yes}} is passed. Juwan (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:I am here to request the same thing: on the Nintendo Switch 2 page, the intro ought to have a semicolon in this template after the Hepburn field:

{{blockquote|Japanese: ニンテンドースイッチ2, Hepburn: Nintendō Suitchi Tsū, Nintendo branded the console in Japan using its English name.}}

:Brad (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:taking a peek at the code, this would be done by modifying the {{code|formatting}} table, as shown below:

:

local formatting = {

-- <5p4n> and : place holders for font-weight style spans; akin to stripmarkers, replaced before function returns

{'<5p4n>(%s)', {extra}}, -- 1 - (extra)

{'%s<5p4n>', {romanized}}, -- 2 - romanized

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {romanized, extra}}, -- 3 - romanized (extra)

{'<5p4n>(%s)', {native}}, -- 4 - native

{'<5p4n>(%s, %s)', {native, extra}}, -- 5 - (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {romanized, native}}, -- 6 - romanized (native)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s)', {romanized, native, extra}}, -- 7 - romanized (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n>', {english}}, -- 8 - english

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, extra}}, -- 9 - english (extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, romanized}}, -- 10 - english (romanized)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s)', {english, romanized, extra}}, -- 11 - english (romanized, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, native}}, -- 12 - english (native)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s)', {english, native, extra}}, -- 13 - english (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s)', {english, native, romanized}}, -- 14 - english (native, romanized)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s, %s)', {english, native, romanized, extra}}, -- 15 - english (native, romanized, extra)

}

:to the code below:

:

local formatting = {

-- <5p4n> and : place holders for font-weight style spans; akin to stripmarkers, replaced before function returns

{'<5p4n>(%s)', {extra}}, -- 1 - (extra)

{'%s<5p4n>', {romanized}}, -- 2 - romanized

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {romanized, extra}}, -- 3 - romanized (extra)

{'<5p4n>(%s)', {native}}, -- 4 - native

{'<5p4n>(%s; %s)', {native, extra}}, -- 5 - (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {romanized, native}}, -- 6 - romanized (native)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s; %s)', {romanized, native, extra}}, -- 7 - romanized (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n>', {english}}, -- 8 - english

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, extra}}, -- 9 - english (extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, romanized}}, -- 10 - english (romanized)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s; %s)', {english, romanized, extra}}, -- 11 - english (romanized, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s)', {english, native}}, -- 12 - english (native)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s; %s)', {english, native, extra}}, -- 13 - english (native, extra)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s; %s)', {english, native, romanized}}, -- 14 - english (native, romanized)

{'%s<5p4n> (%s, %s; %s)', {english, native, romanized, extra}}, -- 15 - english (native, romanized, extra)

}

Juwan (talk) 02:03, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

::pinging @Trappist the monk as basically the sole contributor to this template after forking Juwan (talk) 02:04, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Have you sandboxed this? There are four tables like the one above; if we are to change one, ought we not change the others? Each of the supported templates has its own ~/testcases.

:::—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

::::I haven't, thank you for reminding me of that. Juwan (talk) 15:37, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

::::@Trappist the monk sandboxed at Module:Nihongo/sandbox. Juwan (talk) 06:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::Please do not change established coding style.

:::::

:::::You haven't finished – unless {{tlx|nihongo}} and {{tlx|nihongo krt}} should not use semicolon separators. If they are different for a reason, that reason must be documented.

:::::

:::::Update the inline comments to match the new punctuation.

:::::—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

{{od}} Hi {{u|DividedFrame|Brad}}, I see you reopened this request on 7 June. Is there any update? As far as I see, {{u|JnpoJuwan|Juwan}} unfortunately "pulled out" before addressing {{u|Trappist the monk}}'s notes. Would you like to complete the work? I'd do that myself, but per previous discussion it's not clear whether all occurrences should use semicolon separators or not. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 02:59, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{tq|it's not clear whether all occurrences should use semicolon separators or not.}} If that is a true statement then it appears that there is no consensus for this change so I have disabled the edit request.

:—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:03, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm not asking for a change, I'm asking for an option between a comma and a semicolon. Right now the template does not fully comply with WP:MOS. -- Brad (talk) 19:36, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:::{{tq|I'm not asking for a change, I'm asking for an option between a comma and a semicolon.}} Isn't the addition of a separator selector switch a {{em|change}} to the template/module code?

:::

:::{{tq|Right now the template does not fully comply with WP:MOS.}} The en.wiki manual of style encompasses some [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=-intitle%3A%2F%5BSs%5Dandbox%2F+prefix%3AWikipedia%3AManual+of+Style%2F&ns4=1 160 pages]. With which of those pages does this template fail to comply?

:::—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::::An optional way to replace the colon with a semicolon would result in no changes to existing templates.

::::As noted above, from Nintendo Switch 2:

::::{{blockquote|Japanese: ニンテンドースイッチ2, Hepburn: Nintendō Suitchi Tsū, Nintendo branded the console in Japan using its English name.}}

::::Right now the text after the Hepburn romanization is separated by a comma, which should be a semicolon in this case (and all others that come to mind; anything not in the format Language: Text should be separated by a semicolon). See MOS:SEMICOLON and Comma splice. -- Brad (talk) 01:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@{{u|DividedFrame|Brad}}: I finally took time to delve into this issue and update Module:Nihongo/sandbox myself. Please check the resulting templates ({{tlx|Nihongo/sandbox}}, {{tlx|Nihongo3/sandbox}}, {{tlx|Nihongo krt/sandbox}}, {{tlx|Nihongo foot/sandbox}}) and let me know if that's ok. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 11:01, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::@Est. 2021 Awesome, thanks so much! I quickly tested these out and they look good to me. This is exactly what I had in mind. -- Brad (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

{{od}}{{re|JnpoJuwan|label1=Juwan|DividedFrame|label2=Brad}} {{done|Completed}}. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Est. 2021 thank you very much! Juwan (talk) 16:58, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

{{edit template-protected|Module:Nihongo|answered=yes}}

{{difftext|local lead = 'yes' == args.lead;|local lead = require ('Module:yesno')(args.lead);}}

Before it was replaced with a mudule, it was used {{tl|yesno}} to check the lead ({{code|{{#ifeq:{{yesno|{{{lead|}}}}}|yes|wikitext}}), so it wasn't case-sensitive and values like {{para|lead|y}} or {{para|lead|true}} would work. Now, it'll only work if it is {{para|lead|yes}}.

I can't say for sure, but there may have some pages created before the module implementation that use {{para|lead|Yes}} or any other expression supported by {{tlc|yesno}}. Vinickw‍✉ 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:For the record, this was implemented in Special:Diff/1271112797. —⁠andrybak (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't understand the reason for additional indirection for tag = 'ja' four times in the config. Presumably, it must always be exactly 'ja' for Module:Nihongo (see Module:Lang/data). I think it can be dropped: Special:Diff/1286458483/1286504678. For more clarity, a named string constant can be used instead of a literal: Special:Diff/1286458483/1286504838.

If we are to leave this additional indirection through cfg, then I propose using it more consistently: Special:Diff/1286458483/1286459081. —⁠andrybak (talk) 09:12, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:I've read through module's history more carefully and found where tag in cfg came from. The module used to also support templates for Chinese until Special:Diff/1245874224. —⁠andrybak (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:

:Yeah, because of {{tlx|hanyu}}. In reality, all of cfg, err_cat, and err_msg tables can be replaced with simpler code. None of those tables are required any longer and the cfg tables are mostly redundant to each other.

:

:But the module works as-is, so I set it aside until some sort of significant change to the module was needed.

:

:Using explicit ja language tags in the code seems to me to be best because this template/module is ja-specific. As for the other data in the tables, those should be kept more-or-less where they are so that users of the module on other-language wikis only have to translate those strings in a single place.

:—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2025 (UTC)