Template talk:Template for discussion

File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg You are invited to join the discussion at WP:VPT § Infobox deletion discussion notice. Best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 10:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful to have a new param value {{para|type|template doc page}}, so that the message could start out with "This template doc page" when nominating Template doc pages. Or maybe just {{para|type|doc page}}, and then it could be used for Module doc as well. Mathglot (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

:Why? I know there are certain editors that are convinced that every unused /doc needs to be sent to TFD, but really it could just be redirected or (gasp) ignored and left alone. There is zero reason to modify the template just to add an extra word to indicate that the /doc itself is being nominated. Primefac (talk) 23:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

:: For clarity. The reason is because if one sees "This template is being nominated for deletion" it could very easily be interpreted as being the template that is nominated (that's what it says; why wouldn't it mean that?). To prevent confusion, and maybe alarm in readers viewing that statement, it should say that only the doc page is being nominated for deletion. Redirecting it is still a possibility, and WP:TFD stands for "Templates for discussion", and the one-sentence lead at that page says that it is about discussing "{{xt|deletion or merging}}", and either one may involve creation of a redirect, so that is the proper page to discuss it. (Then again, why keep a page around and provide a redirect from it for a dead doc page with no inlinks to it other than Tfd itself?) To prevent alarm or misunderstanding on the part of users seeing a big, red-bordered box at the top of their favorite template doc page saying, {{xt!|This template is being discussed in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy}} it would be wise, in my opinion, to add the two extra words. Mathglot (talk) 00:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

:::Documentation pages should not be deleted if they are being actively transcluded onto a template, and if they are, the TFD nomination should be put in noinclude tags or use the parameter that disables display. Primefac (talk) 00:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

:::: Agreed. I am talkig about orphan doc pages transcluded nowhwere, other than Tfd itself. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Mathglot (talk) 00:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Weird problem with STN Template, the problem of {{tl|Tfd}} and {{tl|Tfm}} templates showing up right next to each other came up. While there's no easy way to make sure that the Tfm/Tfd template shows up only once per page, we could add .tfd ~ .tfd { display: none; } to Template:Template for discussion/styles.css, which would make it so that if multiple Tfd/Tfm templates are present in a single parent element (paragraph, table cell, list item, etc.), only the first one will show up. This would largely mitigate the problem seen with templates like {{tl|STN}} in that linked discussion.

The only downside is that if there are different templates in the same parent that are nominated for deletion/merging, only the first will show the message. However, if the alternative is to hide the Tfd/Tfm notice altogether, I think that this solution would be preferable.

I've implemented this change in Template:Template for discussion/sandbox/styles.css, which is used by {{tl|Template for discussion/sandbox}} and {{tl|Tfm/sandbox}}, if you want to try it out. ay objectons to adding this to the live templates? --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 20:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

: Seems reasonable. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:Support with changes. Editors only need to be notified once. Some editors only see one notification via talkpage {{t|Tfd_notice}} if this month they're reading articles about other topics. Most other notices occur once at the head of the article. 172.97.141.219 (talk) 16:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

::What if the {{tq|same parent}} is the topmost mw-parser-output? Adding * > might prevent this for navboxen and sidebars, which are unnested and singletons: * > .tfd ~ .tfd { display: none; } This leaves inline templates, oh well I guess. 172.97.141.219 (talk) 19:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:::* > would still hide it for all navboxes/sidebars since they are direct children of the mw-parser-output {{tag|div}}. You'd want :not(.mw-parser-output) > .tfd ~ .tfd, :not(.mw-parser-output) > .tfd ~ * .tfd { display: none; } --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

::::I also added a {{para|dedup|no}} killswitch to turn off deduplication. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

::::That also works, and I guess it's more readable. I was relying on the fact that MediaWiki CSS security features will always automatically convert my * > .tfd ~ .tfd into .mw-parser-output * > .tfd ~ tfd. 172.97.141.219 (talk) 22:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

:{{done}}, with the slight change that both .mw-parser-output and .documentation classes are excluded as parent elements. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:43, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

{{edit template-protected|Template:Template for discussion/dated|Template:Tfm/dated|answered=yes}}

Tfd/sandbox, Tfm/sandbox

Readers currently find it unusual to see intrusive full-height inline links:

{{tqb|"The service operates in conjunction with the Sunrise Seto service to ‹See TfM›Takamatsu between Tokyo and ‹See TfM›Okayama. The combined 14-car train departs from Tokyo, and stops at ‹See TfM›Yokohama, ‹See TfM›Atami, ‹See TfM›Numazu, ‹See TfM›Fuji, ‹See TfM›Shizuoka, ‹See TfM›Hamamatsu (final evening stop), ‹See TfM›Himeji (first morning stop), and arrives at ‹See TfM›Okayama, where the train splits."{{pb}}

How is that "minimal"?|Isaac Rabinovitch|ts=03:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)|id=20241207031200}}

The advantage of a superscript is that readers are already accustomed to skipping over blue superscript references and inline cleanup tags.

{{divbox|plain|After (thank you Ahecht)|3=The service operates in conjunction with the Sunrise Seto service to ^[TfM]Takamatsu between Tokyo and ^[TfM]Okayama. The combined 14-car train departs from Tokyo, and stops at ^[TfM]Yokohama, ^[TfM]Atami, ^[TfM]Numazu, ^[TfM]Fuji, ^[TfM]Shizuoka, ^[TfM]Hamamatsu (final evening stop), ^[TfM]Himeji (first morning stop), and arrives at ^[TfM]Okayama, where the train splits.}}

{{td| |tiny = {{{link| |tinier = ^{[{{{link]}}}

{{td| |tiny = ‹See TfM›|

|tinier = ^{[TfM]}}}

{{cot|Old version with wrong metatemplate}}

Tfd/sandbox, Tfm/sandbox

{{td| |tiny = {{{link| |tiny = {{Fix|text=TfD|link={{{link|Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#{{{page|}}}}}}}}}}

{{td| |tiny = ‹See TfM›| |tiny = {{Fix|text=TfM|link={{{link|Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#{{{page|}}}}}}}}}}

Alternatives are {{t|r/superscript}}, templatestyles, and perhaps {{para|class=tfd}} for compatibility with #Hide_subsequent_inline_instances.

{{divbox|plain|After|The service operates in conjunction with the Sunrise Seto service to {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Takamatsu between Tokyo and {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Okayama. The combined 14-car train departs from Tokyo, and stops at {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Yokohama, {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Atami, {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Numazu, {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Fuji, {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Shizuoka, {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Hamamatsu (final evening stop), {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Himeji (first morning stop), and arrives at {{fix|text=TfM|link=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 December 6#Template:STN}}Okayama, where the train splits.}}

{{cob}}

172.97.141.219 (talk) 14:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:I refactored your changes so that they don't use {{tl|fix}} (since TfD is not cleanup), do use the tfd class (to enable hiding subsequent ones per the section above), and moved them to a new tinier keyword, keeping the existing tiny as is. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

::Thank you for fixing my code!

::{{hidden begin|title=Old ^{<angle bracket idea>}}}Also, the alternative I wrote in the meantime for visual distinctiveness in response to "Tfm is not cleanup" is using <> instead of []: The service operates in conjunction with the Sunrise Seto service to ^‹TfM›Takamatsu between Tokyo and ^‹TfM›Okayama. The combined 14-car train departs from Tokyo, and stops at ^‹TfM›Yokohama, ^‹TfM›Atami, ^‹TfM›Numazu, ^‹TfM›Fuji, ^‹TfM›Shizuoka, ^‹TfM›Hamamatsu (final evening stop), ^‹TfM›Himeji (first morning stop), and arrives at ^‹TfM›Okayama, where the train splits.{{hidden end}}

::172.97.141.219 (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

::My expertise on Wikipedia template development is nil, but my complaint seems to be motivating this change, so let me add my perspective.

::For an ordinary user, ^‹TfM› is every bit as confusing and distracting as ‹See TfM›. It's an unfamiliar annotation, and if they click on it, they land into a change discussion that pure gibberish to most them. Every one of them thinks "why the actual fuck do I need to see this"?

::I hope I'm not coming off as somebody who's mad at template developers. You folks do work that's absolutely essential to those of us who just edit content. But you're a relatively small community, and I don't understand why you can't find a way to notify each other of template change discussions without munging content read by millions of Wikipedia readers.

::— Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Ok, nevermind the <angle bracket> idea. Most readers might only know [].

:::{{tq|a way to notify each other of template change discussions}} Another new default-visible and IP-inclusive idea: We can use {{t|topicon}}, which teleports the notice to the top right {{tq|without munging content}}. Unfortunately that would involve more work and article-detrimental TfDs are rare, and the related attempt at Template talk:Requested move notice#Proposed revision to make this notice less disruptive fell through. Another idea moves everything to the end matter, by using display:none {{para|group}}ed {{xtag|ref}}, which is deduplicated. 172.97.141.219 (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

::::Thanks for listening to my concerns. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

:In noting that #Hide subsequent inline instances above has been implemented, and thus the TFD notice will only show once for any given template on a page, is there still a strong desire to change the announcement notice? Primefac (talk) 14:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

::My original motive was stylistic consistency. I don't know anywhere else ‹› is used, so I find those angle brackets too idiosyncratic.

::That said, I wanted to replace tiny instead of making a new type. Having a separate tinier type might lead to less consistency and more complexity. Before #Hide subsequent inline instances was implemented, I weakly supported or was neutral about this current edit request. Now I weakly oppose or am neutral. If we don't add a new type, I would normal-support this. 172.97.141.219 (talk) 00:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Okay. I'm fine letting the discussion continue, but I'll disable the edit request until a new consensus develops. Primefac (talk) 07:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Please can "subst:" be added inside the braces, on the line that recommends posting {{tl|Tfd notice}} on the creator's talk page? – Fayenatic London 22:35, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

: Fixed. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:44, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

@Ahecht, this made stray spaces appear on pages like State_Automobile_Inspectorate#History. You might want to adjust this. 1234qwer1234qwer4 21:18, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:@1234qwer1234qwer4 {{fixed}}. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 22:21, 3 May 2025 (UTC)