The rarity of southern players on Walter Camp's All-America first teams led to an apparent cliche, or conundrum, with the claim of "first Southern player chosen by Walter Camp." Strupper seems to get that title if I have reviewed the lists presented here correctly. Quite a few sportswriters who had surely watched football and read about it in 1917, seemed the first to put this label on Bum Day in 1918. Hm. Just a journalism cliche, "puffing" of a kind? Or just because Strupper was the second halfback chosen while Day the first center? Or is there an error on the 1917 page? Or something else? I'd appreciate if you shed light on my darkness; hope not too silly a question. Cake (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- FYI, the Walter Camp Football Foundation does not list a 1917 All-America Team, but includes the following notation: "All-America Team not selected because of World War I." (See current WCFF All-America Teams webpage [http://www.waltercamp.org/honors/ here].) Our 1917 College Football All-America Team article lists Walter Camp All-Americans, as published in Collier's. The 2014 NCAA Records Book has an asterisk next to the 1917 entry for Walter Camp, with a footnoted annotation: "In 1917, Walter Camp selected an all-Service, All-America team composed of military personnel." The website that I have been using to view old Collier's articles does not include issues from before 1926. (See [http://www.unz.org/Pub/Colliers here].) This clearly bears some scrutiny because the NCAA believes that the 1917 Walter Camp selections were different from other years, and the WCFF doesn't even acknowledge them. If, as I suspect, Camp chose only players for the various Army and Navy service teams, such as the Great Lakes Naval Station football team, the distinction may have been lost on some newspapers in reporting what the selected players' colleges were vs. what service team they were playing for in 1917. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
:*Then I found this December 13, 1917 article from the Oregon Daily Journal [http://www.newspapers.com/image/77156801/?terms=%22Walter+Camp%22 here], which lists an Auburn player in addition to Strupper. Interesting. And you will note the phrasing of the linked article: "Camp . . . has indicated his choice of an All-American Team this year will be made from the following players . . . ." The list looks preliminary, as it includes multiple players at all positions (except guard). Note the odd use of the future tense. I have yet to find a subsequent article through Google News Archive or Newspapers.com that explains this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
::*And then we discovered the footnoted article from the Fort Wayne Sentinel used to source the 1917 "Walter Camp" selections in the Wikipedia article does nothing of the kind. Walter Camp is mentioned elsewhere on page 8, but the All-America team listed is the newspaper's, not Camp's. (See [http://www.newspapers.com/image/29262289 here].) Ouch. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
:::*Found it: consistent with the WCFF's non-listing of a 1917 team and the NCAA's 1917 notation in its record book, Collier's published a list of "All-America Service Teams" by Walter Camp in its January 5, 1918 issue. (See p. 32 [http://books.google.com/books?id=bZxCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=collier%27s+%22short+story%22&hl=en#v=onepage&q=All-America&f=false here].) As usual, no Southerners were included among Camp's first team. I still can't explain what the Oregon Daily Journal was referencing in the linked article from December 13, 1917 above. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
:::::*So Camp didn't select an All America team, rather selected an All Service team, but then also published a team in Collier's Weekly reported by a Fort Wayne newspaper? I can't find the reference in the Fort Wayne paper. In fact I see only a paper published that week for the 28th not the 29th, and I didn't see any mention of football. What you said made a lot of sense, but then I haven't a clue what the wikipedia article is referencing. Page 47 in your Collier's Weekly seems to have some southerns as honorable mention, but Guyon is mentioned above Strupper. Cake (talk) 01:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::*Cake, the Fort Wayne Sentinel is a head-fake/red herring that should never have been included as a reference. The All-America team listed in the Fort Wayne newspapers is not Walter Camp's 1917 college team; it's the newspaper's own 1917 All-America team. The words "Walter Camp" do not appear in the article, but they do appear elsewhere on the same page. Someone who added the footnote/citation to the 1917 College Football All-America Team article was clearly using a key word search that included "Walter Camp" and "All-America" and did not look to confirm that it was actually Camp's 1917 college list, which it wasn't.
:::::::Camp did not pick a college football All-America team for 1917; he did pick "All-America Service Teams" for 1917 (see January 5, 1918 issue of Collier's linked above). This is confirmed by the notations in the NCAA Records Book and by the Walter Camp Football Foundation's lack of a 1917 All-America team. The WCFF did not exist in 1917, but it does include all of the Walter Camp All-America teams prior to the formation of the WCFF as part of its lineage, and WCFF specifically states there was no 1917 team because of World War I (see WCFF webpage linked above).
:::::::All of which brings us back to Strupper and Bum Day; Day still appears to be the first-ever first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp (1918). As for the present Wikipedia article "1917 College Football All-America Team," it clearly needs to be critically reviewed and edited to strip out the inaccurate "Walter Camp" selections for 1917, and all other selections need to be confirmed using Newspapers.com, Google News Archive, and other available online searches. I think we also need to discuss what secondary selectors we include in our All-America team articles. In my opinion, we should not be including selections from the Fort Wayne Sentinel and the like. There were dozens of such minor selectors every year, most of which are of no historical importance. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I don't see even the newspaper's own All America team nor a newspaper for the date given, but that is interesting. I did not know such errors were left on All-America team pages. Will try to at least post a few if any proper teams on 1917s All-Americans talk page.Cake (talk) 02:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::The Fort Wayne Sentinel article is cited, but not linked in the 1917 Wikipedia article; try [http://www.newspapers.com/image/29262289/ this]. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Consider this one [http://georgiasportshalloffame.com/site/our-inductee] Search for Strupper's page, will say he was the first southern All-American.Cake (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::MC, what's at issue is who was the first-ever Southerner who was a first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp. Camp had previous second and third-team selections, and undoubtedly there were a handful of Southerners picked as first-teamers before 1918 by selectors other than Camp. It's unclear from his GSHOF bio who selected Strupper as an All-American in 1917, but we know it wasn't Camp because Camp did not select a team in 1917. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: Yes I know; was just to show I hope I had reason to inquire. The claim to fame is being the first selected by Walter Camp, yet one finds claims like that for Strupper along with it being said here (wrongly, I get it) that Camp picked Strupper. It looks like Day; McMillin, Roberts, Weaver; Fincher; and Bomar get to be called Camp's southerners. Cake (talk) 19:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Is Red Weaver wearing a codpiece in that photo?? Now, that's a physique. LOL Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
::I am presently tied up on non-WP matters, but I noticed this discussion. If the footnote referencing the WC team for 1917 is in error, it was probably my error. I created most of the early AA team articles. If it is in error, it should be fixed. Give me a few days, and I'll check it out. If there is a separate WC All-Service team, it should be included and identified as such. As for limiting selectors, I favor inclusion with clear sourcing. (My preferred practice is to identify in bold the selectors recognized by the NCAA as official for consensus purposes.) For many years, Camp's selections are the only "official" selections, but they were highly controversial at the time and sidely regarded as biased in favor of the Ivy League and Eastern schools. Camp rarely attended games outside a 100-mile radius of New Haven, did not see most non-Eastern players in action, while led to angry calls in the Western press that his selections ought not to be regarded as true "All-American" teams. Inclusion of other selectors, particularly Western and Southern selectors (even though not used in the NCAA consensus determinations), helps present a broader and more balanced spectrum of historical points of view. More information is better. Cbl62 (talk) 15:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
::: The old AA pages are a long-term project that I started years ago. There are still a number of missing selectors that I was unable to track down. I have now ordered a copy of the ESPN College Football Encyclopedia which should be delivered within a couple weeks. Once I get that, I can also go back and start filling in some of the older holes. Cbl62 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
::::Talk:1917_College_Football_All-America_Team Let me know how it looks when you get a chance. Thanks for the help dirtlawyer. Cake (talk) 12:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::A few newspapers mention Reynolds Tichenor as the first Southern player ever selected for an All-American by Walter Camp; I guess for a third-team or something, but see no mention of him anywhere. Might wish to double check to see if he ever got any mention. Cake (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
