Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A. McDougall

:{{la|A. McDougall}} ([{{fullurl:A. McDougall|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A. McDougall}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

This is a tricky one i think. WP:Athlete may define that hes played at the highest amateur level at the time. And hes won a stanley cup. However that said; He played played as a substitue goalie for only one game in the regular season year of 1895, his first name is unknown, biographical records of him are unknown and their appears to be little record of him outside this one game. Ottawa4ever (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. —Djsasso (talk) 12:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, although we might not be able to expand this much farther, being on a team when it won the Stanley Cup is sufficient. Nyttend (talk) 20:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

:commentWithout some basic information about the person, it is impossible to verify or expand this article. His name is unknown. The single verifying fact that he played on the team is already presented in another article 1895 AHAC Season. Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

• Keep Meets guidelines for notability in athletes. Edward321 (talk) 04:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:I know that im commenting here alot(this will be the last time, promise!), but its an interesting case of WP:athetle and alot of older articles for players that played a hockey game in the 1890s and the basis for which this information is collected. Hartland Macdougall (no article present) was a player that played substitue goal tender for the montreal victorias (as well as defencemen) in several seasons including the season where A.Mcdougall played one game. In fact he is recorded as playing goal twice that season). Hartland can be verified as winning several stanley cups (about 4 i think). A.Mcdougall is not mentioned after this. The article (current a mcdougall) states that he is the brother of A.Macdougall. But this is not verifiable (can it be?). Could A.Macdougall simply be Hartland Macdougall, and the single source that recorded this event be based on a typo? That it was Hartland not A.Macdougall who played goal? This though is original research and cant be verified. I would argue that hartland would be notable based on his extensive play. The source that A.Macdougall is based on is the trail to the stanley cup volume one. and the process to how james coleman (author) collected information is from newspapers. It is possible that this could be a typo, however; if someone were to have access to montreal newspapers on microfilm and searched January 13th 1895 (the day after the game that he allegedly played) perhaps this could be verified and the article could be improved (but still the article would be solely based on this one source). A newspaper clipping from one game complied by colman nearly 80 years after the game took place. No other information exists beyond this. The essential reason as to why Ive posted him is that there is little way to 'verify' his actual playing, this could be someone else. It is based on a single source which could have inherent errors presented within it. I would not object to creating an article merging the A Macdougall article as well as all other goalies that played for the montreal victorias under their stanley cup run (there are at least 5 other goalies). Ottawa4ever (talk) 15:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scott (ice hockey) resulted in a delete. Article was the same nature as this one, ie same two refs and similar content (Scott (first name unknown played one game ...) Maxim_(talk) 19:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. What are guidelines for when we don't have all the biographical information for someone, but we know that the person would meet the notability guidelines? As Ottawa4ever says, there have been many mistakes in the early days of hockey with regards to record keeping. When Total Hockey came out, there were several players who were deleted from the NHL player register, just as there several players added to the register. These additions and subtractions were due to poor record keeping at the time. If we can find proof that a A. McDougall played in a game, it should be a Keep. But we can't make that determination. The A. McDougall could be either of his brothers, even though we have no proof of that either. Patken4 (talk) 20:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Im breaking my promise here but, this is important info. I was able to trace a bit more information about Hartland Mcdougall. Hartland was not the brother to robert mcdougall. But they did have a buisness relation outside of hockey. Hartland ended up being president of the montreal stock exchange in the early 1910s and formed his own finicial firm Macdougall Macdougall and Mactier in Montreal around that time. The company still exists today. Ill be creating the hartland Macdougall shortly. Still nothing on A. Macdougall though. Ottawa4ever (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

:have mixed sources on wther robert was his brother, but I found this source that relates Robert and Hartland http://www.sportshall.ca/accessible/hm_profile.php?i=257 , but not A. Its the canada sports hall of fame, which hes a member of. I also did a census look up in the canadian census. Theres no Robert MacDougall which the article suggests, but there is a robert McDougall in the census. Do you think possibly the A in A.McDougall, was actually M'A'cDougall and that was the typo. Its agreed that the only way to verify this is to proove A.McDougall played that game. Ive in the mean time created the article for Hartland MacDougall. Ottawa4ever (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

::few updates on the search for truth in these articles; This is a collection of original research and syntheisis so it cant be used in the article but it does shed some light on information of these people. Ive managed to determine based on the canadian census that Hartland was the child of George McDougall of scotland, and the siblings from that marriage were Mary and Hartland. Robert is not listed as a relation to hartland. This is using the 1891 and 1901 census. and using information from another ref on who Hartland's parents were. I think determining the fact that they werent brothers is important because commonly they are associated in most documents as brothers. Its also notable that the census uses Mc.Dougall when refering to the name of them (1891) census not as MacDougall. Secondly i looked up robert Macdougall (as well as a search as McDougall), Based on roberts play i think an article is certantly warrented for him so collecting info is valid i believe. I used another source which stated in 1896 he was 20 so at the time of the census he would have been 24. Robert E Macdougall was 24 in the 1901 census and is the only Robert in quebec that fits the description. His parents are Robert W. Not the parents of hartland. One source confirms they are not brothers as well ( http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2007/03/1896-montreal-victorias-reclaim-stanley.html) though the canadian hall of fame says they are. the source mentions that they worked together at the bank of montreal after their hockey careers ended. A Robert E. (same name) would later join hartland to form Macdougall and Macdougall. (likely the same one) Which if they had met years earlier would make sense also considering they worked together (which is original research and speculation, not facts here 'caution') Nethertheless in both families no one with the first name A. exists in the census. that is a fact. So it can with some certainty be proven that they are not brothers or related in anyway. There is alot of possibilities here that make record keeping from that era questionable. Alot of old time hockey players are judged based on whether they played a single game, but errors can be made in record keeping and people like me deducing whether the relation is that they are brothers have many errors as well. Can this be proven is the bottom line? Can it be proven that A.Mcdougall skated into goal that game. It likley can be proven he is of no relation to the other players by blood. But it cant be proven that the record that its based on was not an error or misprint. Can it just be a score card with a simple typo that created two people in history? Or can someone play one game and be notable 100 years later. Bottom line is there will be a reasobable level of doubt associated with old time hockey records and caution needs to be taken when ascertaining whether notability is truly based on playing one game and we shouldnt be applying WP: athlete to every case unless documented evidence exists on the person that can establish whether they existed and played that game. Especially considering he might not have existed and may be someone else.Ottawa4ever (talk) 15:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Keep Winning the Stanley Cup is enough to determine notability. Yes, you personally may have had trouble finding much information on him, but that does not mean it is impossible to find such information. -Djsasso (talk) 12:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:Assuming he exists that is but theres no proof. I think the next step is to look at several newspapers that reported on the game and see if it can be confirmed that A.Macdougall was written down twice. Two last things before this, A.McDougall is not in the team photo for the 1895 championship year (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WcsOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UTkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4690,6300584&dq=hockey) nor does the press at the time consider him part of the championship team. And another thought i had is on the score card A could have been mistaken for H based on the writing. Will look into this a bit further by checking both montreal and ottawa newspapers for reports on the game in question....Ottawa4ever (talk) 14:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

::small source updates here; the team roster at the beginning of the season can be found here http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SMsOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UTkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1566,4192954&dq=hockey . Some players are absent that are listed in other sources but the metropolitan newspaper can confirm their existance (by virtue of a junior team roster) with the exception of A.Mcdougall who is no where mentioned as part of the team during the 1894-1895 paper run. In addition throughout the time period checked there are numerous references to Hartland playing goal for the victorias as well as Lewis, and a brief mention of fenwick. Ill still check a few other sources but I can confirm now that beginning and end of the season A.Mcdougall is not considered part of the 1895 Championship team. Ottawa4ever (talk) 01:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

:Eureka! My friends after an exhaustive search I can proove A.Mcdougall did not play the game. I will be posting shortly the pic. Ottawa4ever (talk) 21:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

:Image:Amcdougall.jpg

::So in summary of the search; the picture to the right above shows that the goalie for the game that A.McDougall was alleged to have played was in fact H.McDougall, or Hartland Mcdougall. This game was played on January 12th 1895, and the picture is of the Globe and mail January 14th 1895 edition. Previous to the start of the season A.Mcdougall was not on the victoria's line up nor at the end of the season (links to articles above this thread). Hartland is confirmed letting in one goal in this game, the only goalie in the 1895 AHAC season to let in only one goal (Goalies who played for the victorias only). Further Hartland and Robert Macdougall are not brothers as the census points out and no where in their lineages is there an A Mcdougall. A mcdougall doesnt exist (rather he is Hartland MacDougall) and is merely a transcribed error taken in the trail of the stanley cup written 60 some odd years after the game was played. If any additional information is needed ill be happy to provide it. As for this article, both Hartland MacDougall and Robert MacDougall have articles now, I think a merge and redirect to Hartland Macdougall would be appropriate. However at this point it repreasents original research and may be tricky to merge, but defineatly as it stands it is proven inaccurate Ottawa4ever (talk) 22:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.