Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Algeria–Holy See relations

:{{la|Algeria–Holy See relations}} ([{{fullurl:Algeria–Holy See relations|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Algeria–Holy See relations}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

current article contains zero evidence of relations between Algeria and the state of the Holy See. LibStar (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• Keep There is plenty of evidence for Vatican-Algeria relations. The Vatican is not the same as the Church and so it often acts a foreign secular power in the country. In fact, it has been fairly active in the country since the independence from the French. For instance, it has intervened in critical moments in the Algeria's recent history, such as during the human rights abuses that occured in the Algerian civil war [http://www.algeria-watch.org/en/articles/2008/vatican_monks.htm] ADM (talk) 15:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Delete - we can't really use an interview with a Vatican official as a reliable source; there's plenty of room at Christianity in Algeria to cover anything notable here. - Biruitorul ^Talk 15:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep In addition to the present and recent material, there will be historic relations going back centuries. Just needs expansion.~
• Algeria gained independence in 1962, so it's hard to see how relations could go back "centuries". - Biruitorul ^Talk 16:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

:::*St. Augustine of Hippo was one of the earlier participants in the relationship. Don't know if this article should extend that far back, though. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:03, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

• Keep The Catholic Church has a long history in what is now Algeria dating pre-1000s, had a very strong presence there when it was a French colony and played an important intermediary, if sometimes contentious, role in the Algerian War with the French. [http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70D1FFF3B5D1A7B93C0A81788D85F4C8585F9][http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20C17F63A5B147A93C5A9178CD85F458685F9]. The Vatican and Algeria relations has continued making news since. [http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=4616][http://www.algeria-events.com/article330.html][http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-744858.html][http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19980109/00950274.html]--Oakshade (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - Vatican may be a small country, but it still wields substantial influence, and its relationship with Algeria has been notable since the war for independence. See [http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70D1FFF3B5D1A7B93C0A81788D85F4C8585F9] + [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-744858.html] + [http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20C17F63A5B147A93C5A9178CD85F458685F] + [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/46355.stm] + [http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19980109/00950274.html] and those already noted, anyone can easily dig up stacks more. WilyD 18:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:N and not a directory. Foreign relations of the 203 sovereign countries are best discussed in the article about the country, or a standalone article if a major country, rather than in 20,000 such binary stubs. A link to the country's foreign ministry website will provide more up-to-date info than a robostub created and neglected. The history of Catholics in the country would be better covered by a mention of that in the article on the country than by trying to use that history to assert notability for this article.Edison (talk) 19:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep: Have added some content to the article with sources that establish notability. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

:*If the decision is to keep, and nobody objects, I will rename to article to "Algeria-Vatican relations", which I think is more correct. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment It seems that "Holy See" is always what we run into in this context. I don't know why that is, but I'm guessing that "Holy See" is more accurate in some way or another. Nyttend (talk) 04:20, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The Holy See has historical legal rights because it also has authority over territories that are outside the Vatican (cf properties of the Holy See). Also, if Vatican leaders were ever to acquire other small territories such as a small island in the Pacific, then the island would be placed under the jurisdiction of the Holy See. Technically, the Holy See used to own several states, such as the Pontifical States, and while the Vatican is currently the only one left, this would not really prevent the Holy See from acquiring any more in the future if an opportunity ever came up. Also, the Holy See is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church ; the Church is the 1 billion laypeople and clergy, while the Holy See is the episcopal and temporal government. Because of this, the articles about Holy See relations should give priority to diplomatic and political matters instead of issues that are exclusively related to the Church. ADM (talk) 07:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

:*O.k. I stand corrected - the name should stay. The relations are with the Holy See as the government of the Catholic Church, not with the tiny sovereign state of the Vatican. I see the term "the Vatican" used more often, but I suppose in the same way that "Beijing" could be used in place of "China" in a headline. I agree that the article should be about diplomatic and political relations only, but would like to give a small amount of historical background. My guess is that the section on "Algerian Independence" as it stands will puzzle 95% of readers. ADM - maybe could you restore just enough to give context? Aymatth2 (talk) 12:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

• Keep Avery long history of both secular and religious relationships. DGG (talk) 04:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - seems to be a notable pair of countries, in that there are actually things to say about this relationship. Robofish (talk) 21:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

{{User:Ikip/99|Wikipedia:WikiProject International relations/Bilateral relations task force/Deletion}}

• Keep I see plenty of valid content in the article, and honestly now, the relationship between two countries at odds with each other is notable enough for warrant the article's existence. Dream Focus 03:12, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Per what has been already mentioned.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 22:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.