Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American influence in the Honduran general election, 2009

:{{la|American influence in the Honduran general election, 2009}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/American_influence_in_the_Honduran_general_election,_2009 Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|American influence in the Honduran general election, 2009}})

As far as I can tell, this is not a notable topic. It has been touched upon very recently because of the Russian intervention in the 2016 United States presidential election, but otherwise seems to fails WP:GNG. I see no reason why this can't be covered in a couple of sentences at Honduran general election, 2009, once the gratuitous Hillary swipes are removed. - MrX 20:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Latin America-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete. Quite POV attack page which appears to exist merely as a vehicle for negative criticism towards a person. After delete, suggest redirect to Honduran general election, 2009. Sagecandor (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

::To address this concern, I've removed every personal name from the article, except those of Honduran politicians. BlueSalix (talk) 19:56, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

:::Is that really necessary? Guccisamsclub (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete - WP:POVFORK. Can be addressed (and in fact is already addressed to an extent) at a large number of other pages: Honduran general election, 2009; Honduras–United States relations; 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis; Chronology of the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis; International reaction to the 2009 Honduran coup d'état, etc.. By the way, this is also addressed at Political positions of Hillary Clinton#Latin America. Any content here could easily be placed in the appropriate spot in one of these six (!) other pages. Neutrality^talk 21:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

::: I see this "POVFORK" thing mentioned several times, but it strikes me that a POV fork implies there's another article differing only in presenting the opposite point of view. I don't think anyone has yet set down the opposing point of view in those articles - nobody is denying the U.S. had influence that I know of - and if we had such an article to point at it would be easier to decide how to merge this. We have a lot of messy organizations of multiple articles about many topics, but calling them a "POV fork" doesn't help sort them out. Wnt (talk) 14:47, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete curious article creation given the involvement in 2016 United States election interference by Russia, seems like a suspicious creation. This was a minor incident already covered in other artiles mentioned above, there is not enough here to stand on it's own. ValarianB (talk) 13:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Keep and Expand Meets our GNG. Material focuses on U.S. role in election, and is expandable (article was only recently created); despite what Neutrality says, the material is not covered in Honduran general election, 2009 and it is bizarre that we would demand readers go to Political positions of Hillary Clinton#Latin America in order to access information about elections in Honduras (may be a case of systemic bias or Americentrism). Finally, with due respect to the newly minted accounts who have flocked to this AfD and are accusing the timing of this article to be "curious" (one of these new SPAs has recently declared "Russians" are infiltrating WP at the NPOV Noticeboard) I hereby declare "I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party," or whatever the underlying implication of the "curious" remark is. (Believe it or not, all of WP isn't focused on the recent U.S. election or its ensuing drama.) Also, GF pinging editors who have recently been active on Honduras-related politics topics including User:Boicoteterno, User:Dove, User:Nightstallion, User:Boud, User:Ceyockey, User:George Ho; and on this article specifically: User:Number 57, User:Callmemirela. BlueSalix (talk) 17:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

:: No, despite your claim, this is directly mentioned in Honduran general election, 2009 ("While some regional nations did not accept the election as valid, others including the United States have supported its legitimacy....Bertha Oliva of COFADEH criticised the United States government for stating that Honduras could hold 'free elections in less than three weeks' when 'Hondurans [were being] subjected to arbitrary arrest, the closure of independent media, police beatings, torture and even killings by security forces'"). It's mentioned even more extensively in several of the five other articles relating to the Honduran election (Honduras–United States relations has a full cited paragraph on it). If you think that the content should be expanded or changed, then feel free to do that — but don't pretend that this isn't or couldn't be addressed elsewhere, because it is.

:: Also, it is not very helpful to misrepresent the views of other editors. Neither I nor any other editor "demanded" that readers go to Hillary Clinton political positions page. Rather, we have pointed out that the U.S.'s role in the 2009 Honduran political crisis is covered in multiple articles from multiple perspectives, and we don't need this blatant POVFORK. Neutrality^talk 20:02, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

:::What POV is this exactly forking? Just because an article may not show the U.S. in a shimmering golden light, the great white savior of western civilization, does not constitute NPOV if it's sourced and factual and represents a self-contained subject, as this does. Let me guess, you also want to delete United States war crimes and merge it into the respective war articles as a POV Fork? With all due respect, I don't think WP:POVFORK means what you think it means. BlueSalix (talk) 23:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

:::: It's clear that you're coming at this from an ideologically-laden standpoint, so I'm not sure further back-and-forth would be productive at all. But to be very clear: it is a POV fork because (a) it was created, by you, to be a counterpoint to the Russia article, and (b) because the sources do not reflect that the U.S. meddled in the elections. The sources seem to reflect that the U.S. did accept the coup after the fact, but I haven't see any source that frames the issue as "U.S. influence on the election." You seem to basically be trying to shoehorn in the facts and sources to fit your new article title. Neutrality^talk 00:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::::: I assume you have proof of my motivation (i.e. diffs), or is this just a shotgun personal attack to see what you can get to stick? It seems to me you're coming at this from an ideologically laden, pro-America, standpoint. You haven't advanced a rational, policy-based argument, only impugned my motivations without diffs to subject us to some kind-of patriotic, flag-waving exercise to get rid-of articles that don't portray the U.S. as a shining defender of freedom because ... 'murica! (AKA - WP:IDONTLIKEIT) And, you've rallied your ideological compatriots - and their freshly minted, 3-week old accounts who have all the edit patterns indicative of paid editors - into some kind-of marauding band of Wikilantes that have been tearing through AfDs. BlueSalix (talk) 00:13, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:::::: None of that was relevant to what I asked (and is mostly a pretty silly personal attack on me). I'll ask again. (1) Do you have significant, reliable sources that frame the issue as "U.S. influence on the election"? Not U.S. support for legitimizing the post-coup government, not U.S. deliberations on the legality of the coup, but "U.S. influence on the election"? (2) Is there any reason whatsoever to think that the content of this article could not be placed in one of the 5-6 other relevant articles? that I've identified above Neutrality^talk 00:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC

:::::: And P.S.: for the record, I do resent your claim that I've "rallied" anybody, much less "compatriots" (who are somehow both "paid" and "ideological"). It's an unambiguous personal attack, it's wrong, and it poisons discussion. So please don't do it. Neutrality^talk 00:58, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::::::: It's hardly a personal attack on you; what is a personal attack is your un-diffed claim about me that "it's clear that you're coming at this from an ideologically-laden standpoint." BlueSalix (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

:::::::: (A) It is a personal attack to baselessly accuse an editor of having "rallied his paid, ideological compatriots" to an article.

:::::::: (B) As to the "ideologically laden" statement: I think it's quite reasonable to interpret your comments on this very thread as such (i.e., overwrought references to "McCarthyism" ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FAmerican_influence_in_the_Honduran_general_election%2C_2009&type=revision&diff=754629880&oldid=754629437 diff]); claims that editors who reasonably disagree with you are somehow complicit in a "patriotic, flag-waving exercise" to portray the U.S. as a "shimmering golden light, the great white savior of western civilization."). My statement that this language is ideologically laden and unhelpful was not meant to be a knock on you, but as a comment that discussions are not productive when we resort to caricatures.

:::::::: (C) But I want to go back to the merits of the deletion discussion. I asked these questions above, but received no response: (1) Do you have significant, reliable sources that frame the issue as "U.S. influence on the election"? Not U.S. support for legitimizing the post-coup government, not U.S. deliberations on the legality of the coup, but "U.S. influence on the election"? (2) Is there any reason whatsoever to think that the content of this article could not be placed in one of the 5-6 other relevant articles? Neutrality^talk 23:34, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

::::::{{u|BlueSalix}}, I'm convinced that you created this article as a counterpoint to 2016 United States election interference by Russia, and there is evidence to back that up, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fake_news_websites_in_the_United_States&type=revision&diff=754416810&oldid=754402029 this wantonly POV edit]. Your above comment attacking Neutrality and obliquely attacking other editors is way out of bounds. - MrX 00:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:::::::What does that show, exactly? I stand-by that edit (added when the article was called "fake news" not "fake news websites" as it's since been renamed). It was reverted before a source [https://www.thenation.com/article/why-are-the-media-taking-the-cias-hacking-claims-at-face-value/] could be added. But, regardless, it has nothing to do with Honduras. BlueSalix (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete Seems to fit the definition of a POV fork. User: Neutrality has the right Idea. Split this off into those other articles. Yellow Diamond's Pearl (talk) 20:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

::And yet another month-old account two-week old account flocking to this AfD to !vote "Delete." I'm not a suspicious person, but ... it's like you guys aren't even trying to look legit at the dozens of articles you're purging and massaging right now. Too funny. BlueSalix (talk) 23:58, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

:::Oh, I read the article. Don't worry. And, well, I may be new, but I think I know what I'm doing.(Oh, and, what does 'massaging' mean in this context?)--Yellow Diamond (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• comment — I'll look at this more carefully shortly, but my first impression would be to merge as a subsection into the Controversies section of the Honduran general election, 2009 article or have it stand as its own top level section in that article; the title should remain as a redirect to the new section, and all supporting material should be merged in with a significant reduction in composed text. There is no reason for outright deletion. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Keep. That's rad—Sagecandor—to compare a historical page about 2009 with one about the elections a few weeks ago. I accuse you of stirring the pot, sir Sage & sir Salix. As BlueSalix said it's a shame not to have any of the tight prose and good refs from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Hillary_Clinton#Latin_America here] in this article, which needs its refs properly developed. Where do I get this "ref-fill" gizmo robot vaccuum tube anyway, User:Sagecandor? You just used it at PropOrNot, I saw you. ^^ I see Neutrality's here. again. Hello, User:Neutrality. Someday on the talk page, the title of the page should be discussed. US influence or American influence? But definitely before deciding where the content should go, it should be collected somewhere other than primarily on HRC's political position's page. ^^ SashiRolls (talk) 01:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Keep the topic is covered in numerous sources. Clearly the only reason why this is pegged for deletion, while 2016 United States election interference by Russia) is not, is flagrant WP:SYSTEMICBIAS. In the latter case, we're talking about troll armies and credible hacking allegations. In the former case, we're are talking about abetting a coup and facilitating a post-coup transition, after decades treating the country and the region as a backyard. Guccisamsclub (talk) 02:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::: The only reason why this article is tagged is that someone nominated it for deletion. You or any other Wikipedia editor can nominate the other one if you want, and then they will have the same fun as people are having here. But ... this one was more eligible, as it goes, because less had been done with it so far - articles often stay merged simply because nobody has built them big enough to be worth separating. It was also sort of created to make a point, I suspect. And the foreign influence in Honduras was more explicitly multinational via the OAS, making the selection of a single foreign country more questionable than in the U.S. where a joint statement of many intelligence agencies pointed the finger at just one country. Wnt (talk) 14:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete This is maybe a paragraph or two in another article, not this WP:POVFORK. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 05:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Keep I think this article is rather poorly written right now. It is not particularly easy to evaluate an article when even the opening sentence is rather poor, and as someone not previously versed in the topic, I am left wondering if a title along the lines of "US American influence in the Honduras post-coup transition 2009" would be better. I also see the poor state of the article carrying over into this debate, which has been substandard in my opinion. For instance, those alleging a POV fork did not state which article is being forked - I see several articles in the general topic area being mentioned, but other articles in the same topic area existing are not a strong argument for deletion. This article has a unique focus in terms of the two countries involved (US and Honduras), the time frame (2009) and the location (Honduras). This focus matches what is set out in the Guardian, NYT, WaPo and Harvard Political Review sources. This establishes notability and mandates that we develop this article in a balanced way. The details should be determined via BRD and the talk page in the first instance. Samsara 09:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• delete obvious POV fork. Jytdog (talk) 11:10, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Keep but discuss merges. AFD sometimes gives "merge" as a result, but in this case it is not obvious how best to organize the content - merge to what? It isn't necessary to delete any edits here so only admins can see them, and I think people can settle a merge discussion either on the talk page or through the contested merges process. I think, at least in this instance, the focus of this article can readily be broadened to all foreign influence, since it is silly to have the OAS almost condemning the election be relevant only in the sense that the U.S. opposed that. A simple rename of the standalone article to "Foreign influence in...", with accompanying broadening of focus, might be merge enough. Or that could become a section in the election or constitutional crisis article. Wnt (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::agree the page needs renaming and could eventually be merged elsewhere. Agree that foreign influence is a better idea, seeing the discussion of the DEA's subsequent role, the Inter-American Development Bank's subsequent role{{cite web|last1=Frank|first1=Dana|title=Just Like Old Times in Central America|url=http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/09/just-like-old-times-in-central-america-honduras-juan-orlando-hernandez/|website=Foreign Policy|accessdate=December 14, 2016|date=March 9, 2015}} and the US-friendly oligarch Miguel Facussé Barjum's role in the coup. -- SashiRolls (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

• Delete as a blatant POV FORK.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:56, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::Oh oh, looks like the renamed villagers are getting out their forks. sigh. SashiRolls (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:::Not helpful. WP:NPA comment like this that does not focus on the content discussion. Sagecandor (talk) 18:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:::{{u|SashiRolls}}: This is an unambiguous and unhelpful personal attack. You've been cautioned about this in the past. Please stop. Neutrality^talk 18:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::::I'm unarmed, Neutrality, I didn't even bring a spoon. SashiRolls (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:::::Sashi, you might want to strike that personal attacks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:18, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

::::::Done, I also warned another editor on another article concerning what I think you'll agree can more seriously be considered personal attacks: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A75.156.49.94&type=revision&diff=755106050&oldid=755105697 here]

• Delete. POV fork from International reaction to the 2009 Honduran coup d'état which presents quite a different picture of US reactions and actions. The main point of the fork seems to be that the US should have interfered post-election but didn't. Contains misquoted references and references that read like someone is trying to rerun the Democratic primary. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:29, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::I'll see if I can find you a Dana Frank article that isn't also focused on calling out presidential candidates for their misleading statements. I think there's one in Foreign Policy, too from a while back that supports the same claim. When I arrived there was no mention of the School of the Americas or of the continued military assistance, which along with US opposition to the OAS' desire to condemn the election are indeed worthy of note. The US did interfere post-coup by continuing their military assistance whereas the US Congress had passed legislation explicitly forbidding it in case of a military coup. SashiRolls (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::No, it appears she only mentions Section 7008 of the State and Foreign Operations Appropriations Act of 2009 in this article, she doesn't specifically mention it in other articles I've checked. By the way, Space4_tl I've decided to improve the article since the text will likely end up somewhere. Could you please be so kind as to list any and all of the "misquoted sources" you found below? Thanks. SashiRolls (talk) 17:08, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::: You write "The US did interfere post-coup by continuing their military assistance." What does this have to "U.S. election influence"? If there is content on U.S. aid, the controversy surrounding it, or any U.S. reaction/role in the coup, then this content belongs at (and in some cases is already at) Honduras–United States relations; 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis; Chronology of the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis; International reaction to the 2009 Honduran coup d'état, 2009 Honduran coup d'état, etc. Not at this newly created page. Neutrality^talk 18:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::::Of course the plane taking the deposed president to Costa Rica did refuel in a US air-force base and the US did break the OAS's will to oppose the election which nobody on the continent really wanted. Curious about this Arcadia foundation that Zelaya blames. Is http://arcadiafoundation.org/?p=3247 an RS on es.wikipedia.org ? ^^ SashiRolls (talk) 19:01, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::Comment the allegation that someone started this due to the Dem primary is not a good argument for deletion. The topic was and remains independently notable regardless of US politicking; in fact it's no longer brought up by US politicians at all, which will help editors focus on the topic of US-Honduras relations rather than partisan bickering. Guccisamsclub (talk) 17:21, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete as a POVFORK. Having a standalone page for this gives undue weight to a particular stance. The 'influence' is not even really shown in the text.Yellow Diamond (talk) 20:36, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Pardon me {{u|Yellow Diamond}} but didn't you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FAmerican_influence_in_the_Honduran_general_election%2C_2009&type=revision&diff=754657868&oldid=754655933 already !vote]?- MrX 20:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Yeah, that's the last time I use my dangerous-connections alt for this. How do I do a slash-thing?Yellow Diamond (talk) 20:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Like this.
• Do not delete but merge into Honduran general election, 2009 - The article is a little too small to be a stand-alone article. However, the content is too valuable to be removed or deleted. Instead, merge into the other parent article. George Ho (talk) 21:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:On second thought, Rename to a more accurate title like American reaction to the 2009 Honduras coup. Make the article more neutral. But don't just burn it all.Yellow Diamond (talk) 21:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::{{U|Yellow Diamond}}: We already have International reaction to the 2009 Honduran coup d'état, in which the U.S. reaction is already mentioned (fairly extensively). Neutrality^talk 21:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::: Alright. Merge into that article. This current title has to go.--Yellow Diamond (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment (edited) There is a consensus of two for "foreign influence in the Honduran general election, 2009" I think. Also the article has been almost completely rewritten since the POV fork rationales for deletion were given above. It contains a lot more meat and a lot more references that are not primarily concerned with HRC, but with Honduras. Those saying the article was a POV fork will need to reassess their evaluation now, in fairness, and perhaps participate in rendering the text even more NPOV. Best, SashiRolls (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

::: You mean influence, right? "Intervention" is a much stronger term, meaning a much smaller article. Wnt (talk) 12:40, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

::::I do, I'm visiting too many pages and am getting confused. I've taken the liberty of changing it above, because yes, I mean (like you I think) influence not intervention. SashiRolls (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment It looks skimpy but nice at this point and I'd support a merge to the parent article Honduran general election, 2009 per the above sentiment by {{U|George Ho}}. Sagecandor (talk) 00:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Delete or merge in Honduran general election, 2009. The sources in the page don't appear to establish notability (WP:NOTE) for the topic. Additionally, there's POV fork related issues with it as well. Stickee (talk) 05:05, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• This is POV fork. Delete this page and merge any valuable content (I do not really see a lot) to other pages as suggested by Neutrality above. My very best wishes (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Deletethis POV fork. The use of "intervention" above tells me all I need to know about the POV purpose here. --Calton | Talk 09:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
• Delete and merge into the Honduran election article. There simply isn't enough here to warrant an article. Orser67 (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
• Delete. POV article built with a POV fine-tuning fork (see what I did there?). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:11, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
• Copied content into [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Honduran_general_election,_2009&diff=755292199&oldid=754854585 the parent article]. --George Ho (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.